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Subject: Re: [virtio-dev] [RFC PATCH net-next v2 1/2] virtio_net: Introduce VIRTIO_NET_F_BACKUP feature bit

On 1/22/2018 1:31 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 01:49:58PM -0800, Alexander Duyck wrote:
On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 11:57 AM, Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@redhat.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 11:25:41AM -0800, Samudrala, Sridhar wrote:

On 1/17/2018 11:02 AM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 10:15:52AM -0800, Alexander Duyck wrote:
On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 9:58 PM, Sridhar Samudrala
<sridhar.samudrala@intel.com> wrote:
This feature bit can be used by hypervisor to indicate virtio_net device to
act as a backup for another device with the same MAC address.

Signed-off-by: Sridhar Samudrala <sridhar.samudrala@intel.com>
   drivers/net/virtio_net.c        | 2 +-
   include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h | 3 +++
   2 files changed, 4 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/drivers/net/virtio_net.c b/drivers/net/virtio_net.c
index 12dfc5fee58e..f149a160a8c5 100644
--- a/drivers/net/virtio_net.c
+++ b/drivers/net/virtio_net.c
@@ -2829,7 +2829,7 @@ static struct virtio_device_id id_table[] = {

   static unsigned int features[] = {
diff --git a/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h b/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h
index 5de6ed37695b..c7c35fd1a5ed 100644
--- a/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h
+++ b/include/uapi/linux/virtio_net.h
@@ -57,6 +57,9 @@
                                           * Steering */
   #define VIRTIO_NET_F_CTRL_MAC_ADDR 23  /* Set MAC address */

+#define VIRTIO_NET_F_BACKUP      62    /* Act as backup for another device
+                                        * with the same MAC.
+                                        */
   #define VIRTIO_NET_F_SPEED_DUPLEX 63   /* Device set linkspeed and duplex */

I'm not a huge fan of the name "backup" since that implies that the
Virtio interface is only used if the VF is not present, and there are
multiple instances such as dealing with east/west or
broadcast/multicast traffic where it may be desirable to use the
para-virtual interface rather then deal with PCI overhead/bottleneck
to send the packet.
Right now hypervisors mostly expect that yes, only one at a time is
used.  E.g. if you try to do multicast sending packets on both VF and
virtio then you will end up with two copies of each packet.
I think we want to use only 1 interface to  send out any packet. In case of
broadcast/multicasts it would be an optimization to send them via virtio and
this patch series adds that optimization.
Right that's what I think we should rather avoid for now.

It's *not* an optimization if there's a single VM on this host,
or if a specific multicast group does not have any VMs on same
Agreed. In my mind this is something that is controlled by the
pass-thru interface once it is enslaved.
It would be pretty tricky to control through the PT
interface since a PT interface pretends to be a physical
device, which has no concept of VMs.

I'd rather we just sent everything out on the PT if that's
there. The reason we have virtio in the picture is just so
we can migrate without downtime.
I wasn't saying we do that in all cases. That would be something that
would have to be decided by the pass-thru interface. Ideally the
virtio would provide just enough information to get itself into the
bond and I see this being the mechanism for it to do so. From there
the complexity mostly lies in the pass-thru interface to configure the
correct transmit modes if for example you have multiple pass-thru
interfaces or a more complex traffic setup due to things like

In my mind we go the bonding route and there are few use cases for all
of this. First is the backup case that is being addressed here. That
becomes your basic "copy netvsc" approach for this which would be
default. It is how we would handle basic pass-thru back-up paths. If
the host decides to send multicast/broadcast traffic from the host up
through it that is a host side decision. I am okay with our default
transmit behavior from the guest being to send everything through the
pass-thru interface. All the virtio would be doing is advertising that
it is a side channel for some sort of bond with another interface. By
calling it a side channel it implies that it isn't the direct channel
for the interface, but it is an alternative communications channel for
things like backup, and other future uses.

There end up being a few different "phase 2" concepts I have floating
around which I want to avoid limiting. Solving the east/west problem
is an example. In my mind that just becomes a bonding Tx mode that is
controlled via the pass-thru interface. The VF could black-list the
local addresses so that they instead fall into the virtio interface.
In addition I seem to recall watching a presentation from Mellanox
where they were talking about a VF per NUMA node in a system which
would imply multiple VFs with the same MAC address. I'm not sure how
the current patch handles that. Obviously that would require a more
complex load balancing setup. The bonding solution ends up being a way
to resolve that so that they could just have it take care of picking
the right Tx queue based on the NUMA affinity and fall back to the
virtio/netvsc when those fail.
The way I see it, we'd need to pass a bunch of extra information
host to guest, and we'd have to use a PV interface for it.
When we do this, we'll need to have another
feature bit, and we can call it SIDE_CHANNEL or whatever.

In the receive path,  the broadcasts should only go the PF and reach the VM
via vitio so that the VM doesn't see duplicate broadcasts.

To me the east/west scenario looks like you want something
more similar to a bridge on top of the virtio/PT pair.

So I suspect that use-case will need a separate configuration bit,
and possibly that's when you will want something more powerful
such as a full bridge.
east-west optimization of unicasts would be a harder problem to solve as
somehow the hypervisor needs to indicate the VM about the local dest. macs
Using a bridge with a dedicated device for east/west would let
bridge use standard learning techniques for that perhaps?
I'm not sure about having the guest have to learn.
It's certainly a way to do this, but certainly not the only one.

In my mind the VF
should know who is local and who isn't.
Right. But note that these things change.

In the case of SwitchDev it
should be possible for the port representors and the switch to provide
data on which interfaces are bonded on the host side and which aren't.
With that data it would be pretty easy to just put together a list of
addresses that would prefer to go the para-virtual route instead of
being transmitted through physical hardware.

In addition a bridge implies much more overhead since normally a
bridge can receive a packet in on one interface and transmit it on
another. We don't really need that. This is more of a VEPA type setup
and doesn't need to be anything all that complex. You could probably
even handle the Tx queue selection via a simple eBPF program and map
since the input for whatever is used to select Tx should be pretty
simple, destination MAC, source NUMA node, etc, and the data-set
shouldn't be too large.
That sounds interesting. A separate device might make this kind of setup
a bit easier.  Sridhar, did you look into creating a separate device for
the virtual bond device at all?  It does not have to be in a separate
module, that kind of refactoring can come later, but once we commit to
using the same single device as virtio, we can't change that.

No. I haven't looked into creating a separate device. If we are going to create a new
device, i guess it has to be of a new device type with its own driver.

As we are using virtio_net to control and manage the VF data path, it is not clear to me what is the advantage of creating a new device rather than extending virtio_net to manage
the VF datapath via transparent bond mechanism.


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