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Subject: RE: [virtio-dev] [PATCH v10 13/13] split-ring: in order feature
> From: Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@redhat.com> > Sent: 4. april 2018 18:08 > To: Lars Ganrot <lga@napatech.com> > Cc: virtio@lists.oasis-open.org; virtio-dev@lists.oasis-open.org > Subject: Re: [virtio-dev] [PATCH v10 13/13] split-ring: in order feature > > On Wed, Apr 04, 2018 at 03:03:16PM +0000, Lars Ganrot wrote: > > > From: Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@redhat.com> > > > Sent: 3. april 2018 13:48 > > > To: Lars Ganrot <lga@napatech.com> > > > Cc: virtio@lists.oasis-open.org; virtio-dev@lists.oasis-open.org > > > Subject: Re: [virtio-dev] [PATCH v10 13/13] split-ring: in order > > > feature > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 03, 2018 at 07:19:47AM +0000, Lars Ganrot wrote: > > > > > From: virtio-dev@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > > <virtio-dev@lists.oasis-open.org> On Behalf Of Michael S. > > > > > Tsirkin > > > > > Sent: 29. marts 2018 21:13 > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 06:23:28PM +0000, Lars Ganrot wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@redhat.com> > > > > > > > Sent: 29. marts 2018 16:42 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 04:12:10PM +0000, Lars Ganrot wrote: > > > > > > > > Missed replying to the lists. Sorry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@redhat.com> > > > > > > > > > Sent: 28. marts 2018 16:39 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 08:23:38AM +0000, Lars Ganrot > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Michael et al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Behalf Of Michael S. Tsirkin > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: 9. marts 2018 22:24 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For a split ring, require that drivers use > > > > > > > > > > > descriptors in order > > > too. > > > > > > > > > > > This allows devices to skip reading the available ring. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Signed-off-by: Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@redhat.com> > > > > > > > > > > > Reviewed-by: Cornelia Huck <cohuck@redhat.com> > > > > > > > > > > > Reviewed-by: Stefan Hajnoczi <stefanha@redhat.com> > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +If VIRTIO_F_IN_ORDER has been negotiated, and when > > > > > > > > > > > +making a descriptor with VRING_DESC_F_NEXT set in > > > > > > > > > > > +\field{flags} at offset $x$ in the table available > > > > > > > > > > > +to the device, driver MUST set \field{next} to $0$ > > > > > > > > > > > +for the last descriptor in the table (where $x = > > > > > > > > > > > +queue\_size - > > > > > > > > > > > +1$) and to $x + 1$ for the rest of the > > > > > > > descriptors. > > > > > > > > > > > + > > > > > > > > > > > \subsubsection{Indirect > > > > > > > > > > > Descriptors}\label{sec:Basic Facilities of a Virtio > > > > > > > > > > > Device / Virtqueues / The Virtqueue Descriptor Table > > > > > > > > > > > / Indirect Descriptors} > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some devices benefit by concurrently dispatching a > > > > > > > > > > > large number @@ > > > > > > > > > > > -247,6 > > > > > > > > > > > +257,10 @@ chained by \field{next}. An indirect > > > > > > > > > > > +descriptor without a valid > > > > > > > > > > > \field{next} A single indirect descriptor table > > > > > > > > > > > can include both > > > > > > > > > > > device- readable and device-writable descriptors. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +If VIRTIO_F_IN_ORDER has been negotiated, indirect > > > > > > > > > > > +descriptors use sequential indices, in-order: index > > > > > > > > > > > +0 followed by index 1 followed by index 2, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > + > > > > > > > > > > > \drivernormative{\paragraph}{Indirect > > > > > > > > > > > Descriptors}{Basic Facilities of a Virtio Device / > > > > > > > > > > > Virtqueues / The Virtqueue Descriptor Table / > > > > > > > > > > > Indirect Descriptors} The driver MUST NOT set the > > > > > > > > > VIRTQ_DESC_F_INDIRECT flag unless the > > > > > > > > > > > VIRTIO_F_INDIRECT_DESC feature was negotiated. The > > > driver > > > > > MUST > > > > > > > > > NOT > > > > > > > > > > > @@ -259,6 +273,10 @@ the device. > > > > > > > > > > > A driver MUST NOT set both VIRTQ_DESC_F_INDIRECT > > > > > > > > > > > and VIRTQ_DESC_F_NEXT in \field{flags}. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > +If VIRTIO_F_IN_ORDER has been negotiated, indirect > > > > > > > > > > > +descriptors MUST appear sequentially, with > > > > > > > > > > > +\field{next} taking the value of > > > > > > > > > > > +1 for the 1st descriptor, 2 for the 2nd one, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > + > > > > > > > > > > > \devicenormative{\paragraph}{Indirect > > > > > > > > > > > Descriptors}{Basic Facilities of a Virtio Device / > > > > > > > > > > > Virtqueues / The Virtqueue Descriptor Table / > > > > > > > > > > > Indirect Descriptors} The device MUST ignore the > > > > > > > > > > > write-only flag > > > > > > > > > > > (\field{flags}\&VIRTQ_DESC_F_WRITE) in the > > > > > > > > > > > descriptor that refers to an indirect table. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The use of VIRTIO_F_IN_ORDER for split-ring can > > > > > > > > > > eliminate some accesses > > > > > > > > > to the virtq_avail.ring and virtq_used.ring. However I'm > > > > > > > > > wondering if the proposed descriptor ordering for > > > > > > > > > multi-element buffers couldn't be tweaked to be more HW > > > > > > > > > friendly. Currently even with the VIRTIO_F_IN_ORDER > > > > > > > > > negotiated, there is no way of knowing if, or how many > > > > > > > > > chained descriptors follow the descriptor pointed to by > > > > > > > > > the virtq_avail.idx. A chain has to be inspected one > > > > > > > > > descriptor at a time until > > > > > > > > > virtq_desc.flags[VIRTQ_DESC_F_NEXT]=0. This is awkward > > > > > > > > > for HW offload, where you want to DMA all available > > > > > > > > > descriptors in one shot, instead of iterating based on > > > > > > > > > the contents of received DMA data. As currently defined, > > > > > > > > > HW would have to find a compromise > > > > > between likely chain length, and cost of additional DMA transfers. > > > > > > > > > This leads to a performance penalty for all chained > > > > > > > > > descriptors, and in case the length assumption is wrong > > > > > > > > > the impact can be > > > > > significant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, what if the VIRTIO_F_IN_ORDER instead required > > > > > > > > > > chained buffers to > > > > > > > > > place the last element at the lowest index, and the > > > > > > > > > head-element (to which virtq_avail.idx points) at the > > > > > > > > > highest index? Then all the chained element descriptors > > > > > > > > > would be included in a DMA of the descriptor table from > > > > > > > > > the previous virtq_avail.idx+1 to the current > > > > > > > virtq_avail.idx. The "backward" > > > > > > > > > order of the chained descriptors shouldn't pose an issue > > > > > > > > > as such (at least not in HW). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Lars > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > virtq_avail.idx is still an index into the available ring. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't really see how you can use virtq_avail.idx to > > > > > > > > > guess the placement of a descriptor. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I suspect the best way to optimize this is to include > > > > > > > > > the relevant data with the VIRTIO_F_NOTIFICATION_DATA > feature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Argh, naturally. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, for split rings VIRTIO_F_NOTIFICATION_DATA just copies > > > > > > > the index right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have an opinion on whether we should change that for > > > > > > > in- > > > order? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe I should think more about this, however adding the last > > > > > > element > > > > > descriptor index, would be useful to accelerate interfaces that > > > > > frequently use chaining (from a HW DMA perspective at least). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For HW offload I'd want to avoid notifications for buffer > > > > > > > > transfer from host > > > > > > > to device, and hoped to just poll virtq_avail.idx directly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A split virtqueue with VITRIO_F_IN_ORDER will maintain > > > > > > > virtq_avail.idx==virtq_avail.ring[idx] as long as there is > > > > > > > no chaining. It would be nice to allow negotiating away > > > > > > > chaining, i.e add a VIRTIO_F_NO_CHAIN. If negotiated, the > > > > > > > driver agrees not to use chaining, and as a result (of > > > > > > > IN_ORDER and NO_CHAIN) both device and driver can ignore the > virtq_avail.ring[]. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point was that device can just assume no chains, and then > > > > > > > fall back on doing extra reads upon encountering a chain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, you are correct that the HW can speculatively use > > > > > >virtq_avail.idx as the direct index to the descriptor table, > > > > > >and if it encounters a chain, revert to using the > > > > > >virtq_avail.ring[] in the traditional way, and this would work without > the feature-bit. > > > > > > > > > > Sorry that was not my idea. > > > > > > > > > > Device should not need to read the ring at all. > > > > > It reads the descriptor table and counts the descriptors without > > > > > the next > > > bit. > > > > > Once the count reaches the available index, it stops. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreed, that would work as well, with the benefit of keeping the > > > > ring out of the loop. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However the driver would not be able to optimize away the > > > > > > writing of the virtq_avail.ring[] (=cache miss) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW writing is a separate question (there is no provision in the > > > > > spec to skip > > > > > writes) but device does not have to read the ring. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I understand the spec currently does not allow writes to be > > > > skipped, but I'm wondering if that ought to be reconsidered for > > > > optimization features such as IN_ORDER and NO_CHAIN? > > > > > > Why not just use the packed ring then? > > > > > > > Device notification. While the packed ring solves some of the issues > > in the split ring, it also comes at a cost. In my view the two > > complement each other, however the required use of driver to device > > notifications in the packed ring for all driver to device transfers > > over PCIe (to handle the update granularity issue with Qwords as > > pointed out by Ilya on 14:th > > Jan) will limit performance (latency and throughput) in our experience. > > We want to use device polling. > > You can poll the descriptor for sure. > > I think you refer to this: > Not quite, on Jan 14 2018 Ilya Lesokhin in his mail: " [virtio-dev] PCIe ordering and new VIRTIO packed ring format", highlighted the subsequent section regarding observed read granularity in the PCIe rev 2.0 (paragraph 2.4.2): ## As an example of update granularity, if a host CPU writes a QWORD to host ## memory, a Requester reading that QWORD from host memory may observe ## a portion of the QWORD updated and another portion of it containing ## the old value" To which you on Jan 16 2018 responded: ## This is a very good point. This consideration is one of the reasons I included ## last valid descriptor in the driver notification. My guess would be that such ## hardware should never use driver event suppression. As a result, driver will ## always send notifications after each batch of descriptors. Device can use ## that to figure out which descriptors to fetch. Luckily, with pass-through ## device memory can be mapped directly into the VM, so no the notification ## will not trigger a VM exit. It would be interesting to find out whether specific ## host systems give a stronger guarantee than what is required by the PCIE ## spec. If so we could add e.g. a feature bit to let the device know it's safe to ## read beyond the index supplied in the kick notification. Drivers would detect ## this and use it to reduce the overhead." As I understand it, the notification is required for safe operation, unless the host can be determined (how?) to uphold a stronger guarantee for update granularity than the PCIe specification requires. > As an example of update ordering, assume that the block of data is in host > memory, and a host CPU writes first to location A and then to a different > location B. A Requester reading that data block with a single read transaction > is not guaranteed to observe those updates in order. In other words, the > Requester may observe an updated value in location B and an old value in > location A, regardless of the placement of locations A and B within the data > block. Unless a Completer makes its own guarantees (outside this > specification) with respect to update ordering, a Requester that relies on > update ordering must observe the update to location B via one read > transaction before initiating a subsequent read to location A to return its > updated value. > > One question would be whether placing a memory barrier (such as sfence on > x86) after writing out A will guarantee update ordering. > > Do you know anything about it? > My knowledge of PCIe is not deep enough, but the PCIe update granularity should not be affected by barriers, since it relates to a single write. > > > > Btw, won't the notification add one extra cache miss for all TX over > > PCIe transport? > > It's a posted write, these are typically not cached. > > > > > By opting for such features, both driver and device acknowledge > > > > their willingness to accept reduced flexibility for improved > performance. > > > > Why not then make sure they get the biggest bang for their buck? I > > > > would expect up to 20% improvement over PCIe (virtio-net, single > > > > 64B packet), if the device does not have to write to > > > > virtq_used.ring[] on transmit, and bandwidth over PCI is a very precious > resource in e.g. > > > > virtual switch offload with east-west acceleration (for a > > > > discussion see Intel's white- paper 335625-001). > > > > > > Haven't looked at it yet but we also need to consider the > > > complexity, see below. > > > > > > > > Without device accesses ring will not be invaliated in cache so > > > > > no misses hopefully. > > > > > > > > > > > unless a NO_CHAIN feature has > > > > > > been negotiated. > > > > > > The IN_ORDER by itself has already eliminated the need to > > > > > > maintain the TX virtq_used.ring[], since the buffer order is > > > > > > always known by the driver. > > > > > > With a NO_CHAIN feature-bit both RX and TX virtq_avail.ring[] > > > > > > related cache-misses could be eliminated. I.e. > > > > > > looping a packet over a split virtqueue would just experience > > > > > > 7 driver cache misses, down from 10 in Virtio v1.0. > > > > > > Multi-element buffers would still be possible provided INDIRECT is > negotiated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NO_CHAIN might be a valid optimization, it is just unfortunately > > > > > somewhat narrow in that devices that need to mix write and read > > > > > descriptors in the same ring (e.g. storage) can not use this feature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, if there was a way of making indirect buffers support it, > > > > that would be ideal. However I don't see how that can be done > > > > without inline headers in elements to hold their written length. > > > > > > Kind of like it's done with with packed ring? > > > > > > > At the same time storage would not be hurt by it even if they are > > > > unable to benefit from this particular optimization, > > > > > > It will be hurt if it uses shared code paths which potentially take > > > up more cache, or if bugs are introduced. > > > > > > > and as long as there is a substantial use case/space that benefit > > > > from an optimization, it ought to be > > > considered. > > > > I believe virtual switching offload with virtio-net devices over > > > > PCIe is such a key use-case. > > > > > > It looks like the packed ring addresses the need nicely, while being > > > device- independent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > --- To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > virtio-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > virtio-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > --- To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > > > > virtio-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: > > > > > > > > virtio-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > > > Disclaimer: This email and any files transmitted with it may > > > > > > contain > > > > > confidential information intended for the addressee(s) only. 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