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Subject: [no subject]

There are two possible interpretations: 

(1) Although, there are two separate roles of RMS and RMD, it is the RMD who
owns the WSDL and dictates all these parameters. This means the BRI, EB
although are defined for RMS, are not really defined by RMS. RMS in essence
has no control over these parameters.  Note that this interpretation appears
to contradict the Lines 112-113 and 117-119.

(2) All the parameters appearing in a WSDL for RMD are applicable for the
RMD only. However each parameter is scoped to request and/or response. For
example, the BRI, EB and IT will apply when the RMD acts in a sender role
(for a response message), and only the IT and AI apply in the RMD's receiver
role (for a request message). RMS is free to use its own parameters. Note
that this interpretation appears to conflict with the example provided in
Section 2.3, lines  225-227 where RMS is mentioned, but it is not stated
that the RMD will be in the role of sender when these parameters apply. 

It is not clear which of the above interpretations is correct. Further,
different sections of the specification are in conflict with each other
regardless of the interpretation assumed as illustrated above.

Justification: 

It should be clear in the specification where the assertion parameters apply
and how. Currently, there are two distinct and possible interpretations
leading to confusion. Further, not making the clarification affects
resolution of issues that pertain to attachment of policy in general since
it is not obvious how the RM Assertion parameters apply with respect to the
roles that are acknowledged in the specification. 

Target: policy 

Type: design 

Proposal: 

Clarify and explicitly state in the specification that each role manages its
own parameters. Update the example to include in the WSDL only the
parameters that are applicable to RMD: IT and AI. In addition, clarify
whether the parameters that apply to RMS may be used within the content of
RM Assertions and when.

Detailed proposal: TBD. 

Related Issues: i021, i006 

References: 

[1]
<http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ws-rx/download.php/14793/wsrmp
-1.1-spec-wd-01.pdf>
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ws-rx/download.php/14793/wsrmp-
1.1-spec-wd-01.pdf 

 

---------------------- 

Dr. Umit Yalcinalp 
Standards Architect 
NetWeaver Industry Standards 
SAP Labs, LLC 
umit.yalcinalp@sap.com 
Tel: (650) 320-3095 


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I would
relate i054 and i021, meaning making sure that a solution to i054 also =
serves
i021.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It is
clear to me that the confusion comes from a lack of support for "roles"
&nbsp;in WS Policy. &nbsp;No waiting for this fix, we could split =
&nbsp;the
RMAssertion container element as we know it, into &nbsp;two assertions:
RMSAssertion and RMDAssertion. Each one of these will be container for
assertion items that concern respectively the behavior of the endpoint =
in a
Source role and in a Destination role, relative to a =
sequence.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.25in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The RM
policy below would enforce interpretation (2) mentioned in i054: =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dred =
face=3DCourierNewPS-BoldMT><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:CourierNewPS-BoldMT;color:red'>&lt=
;wsp:Policy
wsu:Id=3D&quot;My-Destination-and-Source-Policy&quot; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dred
face=3DCourierNewPS-BoldMT><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
CourierNewPS-BoldMT;color:red'>&nbsp;&lt;wsrmp:RMSAssertion</span></font=
><b><font
size=3D1 face=3DCourierNewPS-BoldMT><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;
font-family:CourierNewPS-BoldMT;font-weight:bold'> =
</span></font></b><font
size=3D2 color=3Dred face=3DCourierNewPS-BoldMT><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:CourierNewPS-BoldMT;color:red'>&gt; ... &lt;/
wsrmp:RMSAssertion&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dred
face=3DCourierNewPS-BoldMT><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:CourierNewPS-BoldMT;
color:red'>&lt;wsrmp:RMDAssertion &gt; ... &lt;/ =
wsrmp:RMDAssertion&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dred =
face=3DCourierNewPS-BoldMT><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:CourierNewPS-BoldMT;color:red'>&lt=
;/wsp:Policy
&nbsp;&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>There might be Source-related =
items in
RMDAssertion (making it similar to our current RMAssertion) and if so =
they
would only &nbsp;concern the clients for this endpoint (interpretation =
(1) in
i054).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So, if I want only a policy that =
applies
to an endpoint in RMD (message destination) role, I'd =
have:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dred =
face=3DCourierNewPS-BoldMT><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:CourierNewPS-BoldMT;color:red'>&lt=
;wsp:Policy
wsu:Id=3D&quot;MyDestinationPolicy&quot; =
&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dred
face=3DCourierNewPS-BoldMT><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:CourierNewPS-BoldMT;
color:red'>&lt;wsrmp:RMDAssertion &gt; ... &lt;/ =
wsrmp:RMDAssertion&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dred =
face=3DCourierNewPS-BoldMT><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:CourierNewPS-BoldMT;color:red'>&lt=
;/wsp:Policy
&nbsp;&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jacques.<o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
Yalcinalp, Umit
[mailto:umit.yalcinalp@sap.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October =
18, 2005
3:43 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [ws-rx] NEW =
ISSUE: Target
of RM Assertion parameters are confusing with respect to how they are =
specified
and attached</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Title:
Target of RM Assertion parameters are confusing with respect to how =
they are
specified and attached</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Description:
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Currently
the WS-RM Policy Assertion describes four distinctive parameters in =
Section 2.1
[1]: Base Retransmission Interval, Exponential Backoff, Inactivity =
Timeout and
Acknowledgement Interval. Further, these parameters are scoped with =
respect to
two distinct roles as summarized below:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>RMS:
</span></font><br>
<font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>--
Base Retransmission Interval (BRI)</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>--
Exponential Backoff (EB)</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>--
Inactivity Timeout (IT)</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>RMD:
</span></font><br>
<font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>--
Inactivity Timeout (IT)</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>--
Acknowledgement Interval (AI)</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Clearly
there is a separation between which roles these assertions would apply =
in the
specification.&nbsp; However, the definition of the RM assertion =
includes ALL
of the parameters regardless of the role.&nbsp; This causes a problem =
in
interpreting what is being intended in Section 2.3 [1] which describes =
attachment
of the policy.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>From
the perspective of WSDL, the service is always described from the =
perspective
of the provider and lists the requirements of the provider. Hence the =
WS-Policy
attachment of RM Assertion will appear to apply to RMD alone. If we =
were to take
this assumption into consideration, semantics of supplying all the 4 =
parameters
in a RM Assertion is not very clear.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>There
are two possible interpretations: </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>(1)
Although, there are two separate roles of RMS and RMD, it is the RMD =
who owns
the WSDL and dictates all these parameters. This means the BRI, EB =
although are
defined for RMS, are not really defined by RMS. RMS in essence has no =
control
over these parameters.&nbsp; Note that this interpretation appears to
contradict the Lines 112-113 and 117-119.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>(2)
All the parameters appearing in a WSDL for RMD are applicable for the =
RMD only.
However each parameter is scoped to request and/or response. For =
example, the
BRI, EB and IT will apply when the RMD acts in a sender role (for a =
response
message), and only the IT and AI apply in the RMD's receiver role (for =
a
request message). RMS is free to use its own parameters. Note that this
interpretation appears to conflict with the example provided in Section =
2.3,
lines&nbsp; 225-227 where RMS is mentioned, but it is not stated that =
the RMD
will be in the role of sender when these parameters apply. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>It
is not clear which of the above interpretations is correct. Further, =
different
sections of the specification are in conflict with each other =
regardless of the
interpretation assumed as illustrated =
above.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Justification:
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>It
should be clear in the specification where the assertion parameters =
apply and
how. Currently, there are two distinct and possible interpretations =
leading to
confusion. Further, not making the clarification affects resolution of =
issues
that pertain to attachment of policy in general since it is not obvious =
how the
RM Assertion parameters apply with respect to the roles that are =
acknowledged
in the specification. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Target:
policy</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Type:
design</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Proposal:
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Clarify
and explicitly state in the specification that each role manages its =
own
parameters. Update the example to include in the WSDL only the =
parameters that
are applicable to RMD: IT and AI. In addition, clarify whether the =
parameters
that apply to RMS may be used within the content of RM Assertions and =
when.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Detailed
proposal: TBD. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Related
Issues: i021, i006</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>References:
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>[1]
</span></font><a
href=3D"http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ws-rx/download.php/=
14793/wsrmp-1.1-spec-wd-01.pdf"><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>http://www.oasis-open.org/a=
pps/org/workgroup/ws-rx/download.php/14793/wsrmp-1.1-spec-wd-01.pdf</spa=
n></font></a>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----------------------</spa=
n></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Dr.
Umit Yalcinalp</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Standards
Architect</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>NetWeaver
Industry Standards</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>SAP
Labs, LLC</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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