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Subject: RE: [ws-rx] i021 proposal (updated)
The revised proposal below was culled from Paul's by you only last night. I don't think we as a TC have finished discussing this, just see all of the comments Anish just made about this. Let's even look at one of your own comments: "define rules for handling the case where RM policy assertions are attached to multiple subjects in the same WSDL". Shouldn't that be included in a proposal to resolve this then? What does it mean if this assertion is attached to an endpoint, the input message, but not the output message? Also I have a question about this line in the proposal: "WS-Addressing allows for policy assertions to be included" The 2004/08 version uses [policy] abstract property. The CR version of WS-A doesn't say anything about this. We haven't determined which version of WS-A the final RM spec is going to refer to, we even have a deferred issue on this topic. So how is this impacted by that? Granted this might be the right thing. The right thing, as you suggest, might be cutting this section from the proposal and staying silent. I'm just not sure. I'd prefer to have confidence we were making the right decision on this. I'm sorry that I need time to digest this but I do. As the issue has been open for 8 months as you note I don't see what closing it this week versus next accomplishes other than potentially not getting it right the first time and having to open more issues. Marc Goodner Technical Diplomat Microsoft Corporation Tel: (425) 703-1903 Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/mrgoodner/ -----Original Message----- From: Patil, Sanjay [mailto:sanjay.patil@sap.com] Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:19 PM To: Marc Goodner; Paul Fremantle Cc: wsrx Subject: RE: [ws-rx] i021 proposal (updated) The proposal has been out for review for about a week now (Paul posted it on Feb 9th). The issue itself has been open for about 8 months now :) My proposed changes are something that I believe we can discuss on the call without requiring a line-numbered proposal. I really suggest that we utilize today's call to discuss and resolve this issue. Marc, we can walk through the proposal again if that may help you in understanding it better. -- Sanjay > -----Original Message----- > From: Marc Goodner [mailto:mgoodner@microsoft.com] > Sent: Thursday, Feb 16, 2006 11:52 AM > To: Patil, Sanjay; Paul Fremantle > Cc: wsrx > Subject: RE: [ws-rx] i021 proposal (updated) > > I'm sorry, I might be able to agree to this proposal but I need more > time to review this, particularly as you seem to suggest yourself that > there are changes you want to apply to this proposal. There > was a lot of > discussion on this issue this week and I expect there will be more on > today's call. > > I simply can't digest that much information to make a call one way or > the other yet. I think this is an important issue and would > prefer that > we take the proper amount of time to close it properly. If forced I'm > afraid I would have to vote against adopting anything on this today > rather than making the wrong call or accepting something that is > incomplete. > > All of that said; I'm not opposed to what I'm seeing here. I just need > more time to review it. > > Marc Goodner > Technical Diplomat > Microsoft Corporation > Tel: (425) 703-1903 > Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/mrgoodner/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Patil, Sanjay [mailto:sanjay.patil@sap.com] > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 7:01 PM > To: Marc Goodner; Paul Fremantle > Cc: wsrx > Subject: RE: [ws-rx] i021 proposal (updated) > > > I am fine with Paul's suggested way of addressing my concerns. I think > this proposal should be on the table as a candidate for resolving i021 > on tomorrow's call. I am taking the liberty (due to time zone > difference > with PaulF) to update the proposal as per his response just to > facilitate easier deliberation by the TC members ... > > I would also propose to -- a> define rules for handling the case where > RM policy assertions are attached to multiple subjects in the > same WSDL, > and b> clarify (or even remove) the last paragraph related to how EPR > contained RM assertions interact with WSDL attached RM assertions. I > wouldn't ask for another round of proposal for resolving > these aspects, > and would rather let our able team of editors apply the necessary > changes (assuming the TC blesses the proposal and agrees on the > updates!) ... > > -- Sanjay > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Based on CDII > > Delete 142-154 section 2.3 and replace with. > > 2.3 Assertion Attachment > > The RM assertion can have Service, Endpoint, Operation or Message > Endpoint Policy Subjects [WS-PolicyAttachment]. > > WS-PolicyAttachment [WS-PolicyAttachment] defines both abstract and > concrete attachment points in WSDL [WSDL1.1]. Because the RM policy > assertion specifies a concrete behaviour, it MUST NOT be attached to > abstract constructs: > > * wsdl:portType > * wsdl:portType/wsdl:operation > * wsdl:portType/wsdl:operation/wsdl:input > * wsdl:portType/wsdl:operation/wsdl:output > * wsdl:portType/wsdl:operation/wsdl:fault > * wsdl:message > > The RM policy assertion MAY be attached to the following constructs > * wsdl:service > * wsdl:port > * wsdl:binding. > * wsdl:binding/wsdl:operation > * wsdl:binding/wsdl:operation/wsdl:input > * wsdl:binding/wsdl:operation/wsdl:output > * wsdl:binding/wsdl:operation/wsdl:fault > > If the RM assertion is attached to the wsdl:service > construct, it MUST > be considered to apply to all the wsdl:port's referenced in > the binding. > If the RM assertion is attached to the wsdl:port construct, > it MUST be > considered to apply to all the wsdl:binding's referenced in the port. > If the RM assertion is attached to the wsdl:binding > construct, it MUST > be considered to apply to all the wsdl:operation's referenced in the > binding. > If the RM assertion is attached to the wsdl:operation > construct, it MUST > > be considered to apply to all the wsdl:input's, wsdl:output's and > wsdl:fault's referenced in the operation. > > Attaching the RM assertion to a specific wsdl:input, wsdl:output, or > wsdl:fault construct indicates that the RM protocol MUST be used when > sending that message (or MAY if the assertion is marked optional). > Attaching the RM assertion to a specific wsdl:operation construct > indicates that the RM protocol MUST be used for all messages (whether > input, output or fault) related to the operation(or MAY if > the assertion > > is marked optional). > Attaching the RM assertion to a specific wsdl:binding construct > indicates that the RM protocol MUST be used for all messages (whether > input, output or fault) related to the binding (or MAY if the > assertion > is marked optional). > Attaching the RM assertion to a specific wsdl:port construct > indicates > that the RM protocol MUST be used for all messages (whether input, > output or fault) related to the port (or MAY if the assertion > is marked > optional). > Attaching the RM assertion to a specific wsdl:service construct > indicates that the RM protocol MUST be used for all messages (whether > input, output or fault) related to the service (or MAY if the > assertion > is marked optional). > > WS-Addressing allows for policy assertions to be included within an > EndpointReference. Per section 2.2 above, the presence of this > policy assertion in an EPR specifies the level of support for > WS-ReliableMessaging offered by that endpoint. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Marc Goodner [mailto:mgoodner@microsoft.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, Feb 15, 2006 17:16 PM > > To: Paul Fremantle; Patil, Sanjay > > Cc: wsrx > > Subject: RE: [ws-rx] i021 proposal > > > > So where are we with this proposal now? Is the below text in, > > out? Does > > it need to be revised in light of discussion to date? What is the > > expectation for this issue on the call tomorrow? Discussion > to figure > > out the correct direction to refine this proposal seems > about right to > > me. > > > > Marc Goodner > > Technical Diplomat > > Microsoft Corporation > > Tel: (425) 703-1903 > > Blog: http://spaces.msn.com/mrgoodner/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Paul Fremantle [mailto:paul@wso2.com] > > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 3:04 AM > > To: Patil, Sanjay > > Cc: wsrx > > Subject: Re: [ws-rx] i021 proposal > > > > Sanjay > > > > You are right. The proposal isn't yet fully clear on the meaning of > > attaching WS-RM to a message or operation. > > > > How about if the following text was added, before the EPR text. > > > > Attaching the RM assertion to a specific wsdl:input, > wsdl:output, or > > wsdl:fault construct indicates that the RM protocol MUST be > used when > > sending that message (or MAY if the assertion is marked optional). > > Attaching the RM assertion to a specific wsdl:operation construct > > indicates that the RM protocol MUST be used for all > messages (whether > > input, output or fault) related to the operation(or MAY if > > the assertion > > > > is marked optional). > > Attaching the RM assertion to a specific wsdl:binding construct > > indicates that the RM protocol MUST be used for all > messages (whether > > input, output or fault) related to the binding (or MAY if the > > assertion > > is marked optional). > > Attaching the RM assertion to a specific wsdl:port construct > > indicates > > that the RM protocol MUST be used for all messages (whether input, > > output or fault) related to the port (or MAY if the assertion > > is marked > > optional). > > Attaching the RM assertion to a specific wsdl:service construct > > indicates that the RM protocol MUST be used for all > messages (whether > > input, output or fault) related to the service (or MAY if the > > assertion > > is marked optional). > > > > You are also right about the EPR. I would recommend making the EPR > > policy override the WSDL policy, but once again I think this > > is an issue > > > > with the overall WS-Policy Framework (i.e. a general Policy > > issue not a > > specific RX issue). > > > > Thanks for your comments, > > > > Paul > > > > Patil, Sanjay wrote: > > > Comments inline ... > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Paul Fremantle [mailto:paul@wso2.com] > > >> Sent: Thursday, Feb 09, 2006 1:43 AM > > >> To: wsrx > > >> Subject: [ws-rx] i021 proposal > > >> > > >> Proposal regarding issue 021. I'm not quite sure this is > > >> right yet, so I > > >> would appreciate feedback from the Policy experts. > > >> > > >> Based on CDII > > >> > > >> Delete 142-154 section 2.3 and replace with. > > >> > > >> 2.3 Assertion Attachment > > >> > > >> The RM assertion can have Service, Endpoint, Operation > or Message > > >> Endpoint Policy Subjects [WS-PolicyAttachment]. > > >> > > >> WS-PolicyAttachment [WS-PolicyAttachment] defines both > > abstract and > > >> concrete attachment points in WSDL [WSDL1.1]. Because the > > RM policy > > >> assertion specifies a concrete behaviour, it MUST NOT be > > attached to > > >> abstract constructs: > > >> > > >> * wsdl:portType > > >> * wsdl:portType/wsdl:operation > > >> * wsdl:portType/wsdl:operation/wsdl:input > > >> * wsdl:portType/wsdl:operation/wsdl:output > > >> * wsdl:portType/wsdl:operation/wsdl:fault > > >> * wsdl:message > > >> > > >> The RM policy assertion MAY be attached to the following > constructs > > >> * wsdl:service > > >> * wsdl:port > > >> * wsdl:binding. > > >> * wsdl:binding/wsdl:operation > > >> * wsdl:binding/wsdl:operation/wsdl:input > > >> * wsdl:binding/wsdl:operation/wsdl:output > > >> * wsdl:binding/wsdl:operation/wsdl:fault > > >> > > >> If the RM assertion is attached to the wsdl:service > > >> construct, it MUST > > >> be considered to apply to all the wsdl:port's referenced in > > >> the binding. > > >> If the RM assertion is attached to the wsdl:port construct, > > >> it MUST be > > >> considered to apply to all the wsdl:binding's referenced > > in the port. > > >> If the RM assertion is attached to the wsdl:binding > > >> construct, it MUST > > >> be considered to apply to all the wsdl:operation's > > referenced in the > > >> binding. > > >> If the RM assertion is attached to the wsdl:operation > > >> construct, it MUST > > >> be considered to apply to all the wsdl:input's, > wsdl:output's and > > >> wsdl:fault's referenced in the operation. > > >> > > > It seems like your proposal allows for attachment of RM > assertion at > > the > > > message level. In that case, wouldn't you also want to specify the > > > behavior when the RM assertion is directly attached to the > > wsdl:input, > > > wsdl:output or wsdl:fault constructs? Or is that semantic somehow > > > derived from the above? I think the main question of the > > issue i021 is > > > whether and how does RM assertion apply to the outbound > (I hate this > > > term) messages of an endpoint, and I don't see a clear > > answer to that > > > question in this proposal. > > > > > > There should also be statements for handling the case where RM > > > assertions are attached to multiple subjects within the > same scope. > > > > > > > > >> WS-Addressing allows for policy assertions to be > included within an > > >> EndpointReference. Per section 2.2 above, the presence of this > > >> policy assertion in an EPR specifies the level of support for > > >> WS-ReliableMessaging offered by that endpoint. > > >> > > > Since the previous text regarding the WSDL attachment of RM > > assertion > > > covers the behavior of outbound messages also, there may > possibly be > > > conflicts when both the techniques of associating policies (WSDL > > > attachment and EPR inclusion) are used. > > > > > > -- Sanjay > > > > > > > > >> Paul > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> Paul Fremantle > > >> VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair > > >> > > >> http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle > > >> paul@wso2.com > > >> > > >> "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > -- > > > > Paul Fremantle > > VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair > > > > http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle > > paul@wso2.com > > > > "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com > > > > >
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