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Subject: Prelim minutes of wsrx tx teleconf 7/20
I had a word crash during I144, so I might have lost some of the discussions before the decision to defer.(I was switching to a backup machine). Please post any corrections to the list before Monday morning. Tom Rutt -- ---------------------------------------------------- Tom Rutt email: tom@coastin.com; trutt@us.fujitsu.com Tel: +1 732 801 5744 Fax: +1 732 774 5133Title: Minutes of OASIS WS-RX Teleconference
Prelim
Minutes of OASIS WS-RX Teleconference July
20, 2006 Start Time:4:00 PM Eastern
Daylight Time Paul F acted as chair. Textual Conventions Ø Action Item Motion § Resolution 1 Roll CallFrom Kavi: Over 2x of 4x voting members, meeting is quorate Tom Rutt agreed to take minutes. 2 Agenda ApprovalAgenda: Dial-in thanks to Moderator Name: Bob Freund Tel: 1-866-705-2554 or Tel: 1-913-227-1201 (Next Conference Time: 07/20/2006 at 3:45:00 PM) Participant Passcode: 627479779 IRC/Q Mgmt (thanks to DougD): http://webconf.soaphub.org/conf/room/wsrx Agenda 1) Roll Call 2) Review and approval of the agenda 3) Approval of the Jul 13th, 2006 meeting minutes http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ws-rx/download.php/19174/MinutesWSRX-071306.html 4) AI Review http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ws-rx/members/action_items.php 5) New issues since last conf-call Watch for Marc’s email 6) Issue Discussion: =======Note===================== I would like to try us to knock some of the simpler issues on the head. I hope we can have concrete proposals for as many as possible. ================================ i139 Inappropriate Fault destination http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i139 i147 Extensibility (or not) of the Protocol Elements http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i147 i140 add sub-headings to fault descriptions http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i140 i143 messages have to be received for them to be examined http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i143 i144 RMS MessageNumberRollover behavior unclear http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i144 i145 Implications of Sequence Expiration not specified http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i145 ====Note===================== As regards i122-4, I would like to ensure that we leave at least 30 mins for the discussion - last week we didn't get to either Gil or Doug B's proposals. If for some reason we cannot resolve these issues on this week's call, I propose we use a STV vote on Kavi immediately following the call. ============================= i122 security profiles http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i122 i124 security composition policy http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i124 i123 security profile agreement http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i123 i113 Tightening up the state tables http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i113 8) Any other business Marc G: 145 and 140 should be moved to end, because there is not an agreed concrete proposal on email.. 3 Approval of the 7/13 Minutes;http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ws-rx/download.php/19174/MinutesWSRX-071306.html Tom R moved to approved 7/13 minutes, Doug D seconded. § No objections, minutes of 7/13 approved. 4
AI
Review
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ws-rx/members/action_items.php
Marc G: - Public review list - Open Bob F: polling in state tables – Open Bob and Anish for I140 proposal - Open 5 New issues since last conf-callNone. 6 Issue Discussion:6.1 i139 Inappropriate Fault destinationhttp://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i139 Now
proposal 3 in issue list: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200607/msg00087.html (a)- Replace: "All other faults
in this section relate to the processing of RM header blocks targeted at known
Sequences" with: "All other faults in this
section relate to known Sequences" (b)- Replace: "Entities that
generate Sequence faults SHOULD send those faults to the same [destination] as
<wsrm:SequenceAcknowledgement>
messages" with: "RM Destinations that generate
Sequence faults SHOULD send those faults to the same [destination] as <wsrm:SequenceAcknowledgement>
messages." Jacques
presented his proposal. Marc G moved to accept proposal to resoluve i139, Doug D seconded. § No objections, issue i139 resolved. 6.2 i147 Extensibility (or not) of the Protocol Elementshttp://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i147 Outline of three proposals is here: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200607/msg00059.html Hi all, I'd hoped we would have time to discuss this issue on the last call, but it didn't happen. What I'd like is for the TC to express the direction that you'd like to take, and then I'll do the legwork to get a concrete proposal on list before Thursday. Hopefully that will give us at least one easy issue this week :) There are currently 3 directions on offer: 1. Add extensibility, so that it is consistently everywhere. This is the proposal 1 in the original issue http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i147 2. Remove some extensibility, so that only top-level elements allow extensions. This is proposal 2 in the issue http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i147 3. Do minimal change to get the exemplars, text, and schema in sync (with that order - e.g. no exemplar change, and force the schema into line last). This is my interpretation of what Chris and Marc suggested, but we don't have concrete text for it yet. Arguably, this is a delta that can be managed by the editors. My opinion is that I can go with Chris / Marc's preferred option of minimal change at this point in the spec lifecycle. Equally, I'd be happy with 2 (the changes may look scary, but they mostly just remove extensibility from the wsrm:Identifier element, and I'm not sure when you'd want to extend that). If you can let me know how you feel about this one then we should be able to get some consensus before the call. Thanks Matt I have added the third option in that mail to the issue list as proposal 3. Additional suggestions from Doug B. for proposal 2. (not sure this is a separate proposal, looks like an amendment) http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200607/msg00079.html Matt suggested that we take
variant 3. Doug : the reason I liked variant 2) in that it starts with a consistent approach to extensibility. Gil: I do not quite understand what 3) asks for. Matt: the prose in the text needs to be reflected in the exemplars and then the schema. Chris F: Leave work to the editors, to make the text internally self consistent Doug D: would Doug B be happy if we added extensibility where needed thru separate issues. Doug B: I can live with 3, but I prefer extensibility in supertypes. Marc G: I move to adopt variant 3 to resolve i147, seconded by Chris F. § No objections, issue I147 resolved with proposed variant 3.. 6.3 i143 messages have to be received for them to be examinedhttp://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i143 Proposal 1 in the issue list is still all I have seen. http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200606/msg00200.html Bob presented his proposal. In WD 15 Section 302 “Closing a Sequence” it states starting on line 428:
“If the RM Source wishes to close the Sequence, then it sends a CloseSequence element, in the body of a message, to the RM Destination. This message indicates that the RM Destination MUST NOT receive any new messages for the specified Sequence, other than those already received at the time the CloseSequence element is interpreted by the RM Destination. Upon receipt of this message, or subsequent to the RM Destination closing the Sequence of its own volition, the RM Destination MUST include a final SequenceAcknowledgement (within which the RM Destination MUST include the Final element) header block on any messages associated with the Sequence destined to the RM Source, including the CloseSequenceResponse message or on any Sequence fault transmitted to the RM Source. While the RM Destination MUST NOT receive any new messages for the specified Sequence it MUST still process RM protocol messages. For example, it MUST respond to AckRequested, TerminateSequence as well as CloseSequence messages. Note, subsequent CloseSequence messages have no effect on the state of the Sequence.
In the case where the RM Destination wishes to discontinue use of a Sequence it is RECOMMENDED that it close the Sequence. Please see Final and the SequenceClosed fault. Whenever possible the SequenceClosed fault SHOULD be used in place of the SequenceTerminated fault, whenever possible, to allow the RM Source to still receive Acknowledgements. ”
All messages that reach the RM Destination are received, if they were not then this language would be unnecessary. I suggest that we use the word “accept” in these cases as in the proposal below in addition to a few editorial nits: changes are highlighted in yellow and surrounded by “*”
“If the RM Source wishes to close the Sequence, then it sends a CloseSequence element, in the body of a message, to the RM Destination. This *element* indicates that the RM Destination MUST NOT *accept* any new messages for the specified Sequence, other than those already *accepted* at the time the CloseSequence element is interpreted by the RM Destination. Upon receipt of this *element*, or subsequent to the RM Destination closing the Sequence of its own volition, the RM Destination MUST include a final SequenceAcknowledgement (within which the RM Destination MUST include the Final element) header block on any messages associated with the Sequence destined to the RM Source, including the CloseSequenceResponse *element* or on any Sequence fault transmitted to the RM Source. While the RM Destination MUST NOT *accept* any new messages for the specified Sequence it MUST still process *messages containing* RM protocol *elements*. For example, it MUST respond to AckRequested, TerminateSequence as well as CloseSequence *elements*. Note, subsequent CloseSequence *elements* have no effect on the state of the Sequence.
In the case where the RM Destination wishes to discontinue use of a Sequence it is RECOMMENDED that it close the Sequence. Please see Final and the SequenceClosed fault. Whenever possible the SequenceClosed fault SHOULD be used in place of the SequenceTerminated fault, whenever possible, to allow the RM Source to still *process* Acknowledgements.”
Continue with a similar pattern through the remainder of the document Peter Niblett: The markup proposes other changes that relating to the problem description. Bob This text could be further refined by introducing new issues to refine. Changing “received” word to “accept” word would help. Other changes to clarify that this is to element not message is a separable new issue. Peter Niblett: can we agree to remove changes regarding “element” to “message” Peter: why to we need to change receive to accept. The definition of receive includes qualifying it. It was agreed to move on, and leave this for further refined proposals. …. 6.4 i144 RMS MessageNumberRollover behavior unclearhttp://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i144 Proposal 1 in the issue list is still all I have seen. http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200606/msg00212.html Doug D: rather than close with no action, the RMD should be generating. W should remove all references to RMS solves the problem.
Chris: that is the first chunk of text is kept.
If the message number exceeds the internal limitations of an RM Destination or reaches the maximum value of 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 the RM Destination MUST Transmit a MessageNumberRollover fault. The RM Destination should continue to accept, and the RM Source should continue to retransmit, unacknowledged messages until the Sequence is closed or terminated. If the message number exceeds the internal limitations of an RM Destination or reaches the maximum value of 9,223,372,036,854,775,807 the RM Destination MUST Transmit a MessageNumberRollover fault. The RM Destination should continue to accept, and the RM Source should continue to retransmit, unacknowledged messages until the Sequence is closed or terminated.
Moved by Chris F to resolve I144 with acceptance of Chris F proposal for first text chunck. seconded by Bob. § No opposition I144 resolved. 6.5 i122-4i122 security profiles http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i122 i124 security composition policy http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i124 i123 security profile agreement http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i123 BEA/MSFT/IBM – now in issue list as proposal 2 http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200607/msg00117.html Oracle/SAP – Prateek send recent email. http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ws-rx/email/archives/200607/msg00121.html Sun (Close with no action) – now in issue list as proposal 4 http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200607/msg00088.html Gil presented his amendment, which is in both proposals. This provides a tighter coupling of rm layer to security layer. The sequence is limited to whatever the security layer can provide. Doug B: in terms of our charter and requirements that both
base proposals seem to fulfill, another reason to close with no action is a
time and resources concern. We can take
this item off of our agenda and save energy we are wasting on it. Tying rm sequence
length to security context created for the create sequence can we done
identically with a wss security session. The I121 wording states that doing more than
that goes beyond what our document is trying to do. Paul F: we have three concrete proposals. Doug B moved to close these three issues with no action,
seconded by Jeff M. Gil: I speak against the current motion. We need an interoperable way to secure a
sequence. The RSP group will not be able
to profile a solution to this problem. Doug B: the words we added with I121 make it clear
enough. A mechanism that the rmd and wss implementation
chooses to use is a matter at the destination end of conversation. Chris F: I speak against the motion. There is not a compromise to the middle. The IBM/Microsoft proposal has had a lot of
discussion and compromise. It is only in
the last couple of weeks that Oracle has come up with something different. We should try to wrap this up. RSP needs a piece of spec to profile. Marc G: I agree with Gil and Oracle. Without this there is nothing for RSP to
profile. Prateek: I would like to speak in
favor of this proposal, even though it is against our Oracle solution. There have been no publications of layering
analysis on the Microsoft proposal. The
architectural analysis is not yet complete.
Gil: I do not agree with Doug B that it is in the hands of
the RMD. I want to have an understanding
that the RMD and RMS have the same view. Dave O: BEA has been involved in this since the
beginning. Close with no action is not
the correct thing to do. We have no
solutions to deal with this. We
originally opposed a tight coupling of RM with WSS, but this new proposal
satisfies our concern. We consider this
to be a strong, detailed, and multifaceted available solution. What I would like to do is to move toward
calling question and ask that we vote on this.
Jacques: I do not buy the statement that this is outside
profiling scope of RSP. Every
extensibility point is subject to profile.
It could be handled as a profiling issue. Anish: speaking in favor of
motion, what we are trying to solve is a narrow use case. The attacker has to be a trusted peer, in
that it has to know what the sequence number is, and the message has to contain
multiple tokens (explicit association, rather than implicit association). This is a general pattern, in W-SC, but there
may be issues around this as the WS-SC TC proceeds. There are two proposals on the table,
claiming to have different degrees of coupling.
There is no concensus in this TC Regarding the
two proposals. Oracle does not like
carrying the str in the
create sequence message. This general
problem should be solved somewhere else.
I do not want a rm
specific solution to this general concern. Paul F vote: 17 Yes 18 No Several Abstain §
Motion to Close I122-4 with no action failed. Marc G moved to accept Microsoft/IBM/BEA proposal. Seconded by Chris F. Doug B: I am concerned about using the same security token
in each direction. There is working
about “Keys”. Could the
be handled as later issues, or can they be explained now. Paul F: It is preferable to have that be solved by later issues. Paul F conducted vote: 21 Yes 12 No several Abstain § Motion to resolve I122-4 with Microsoft/IBM/BEA proposal passed. 6.1 i145 Implications of Sequence Expiration not specifiedhttp://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i145 Proposal 1 in the issue list is still all I have seen. http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200606/msg00216.html Doug D: presented a counterproposal, that the sequence just
goes away.. Bob F: is there a terminate sequence message, or does the sequence
just go away. Doug D: I would like the sequence to terminate and
disappear. Bob F: I would like to avoid changing the section talking
about sequence termination. It should
clarify that expiry is a silent termination, or otherwise. It could be a bad or
good termination. Stefan: do we agree on what expiry means. Doug D: do we believe nothing should go on the wire with
expired sequence? Bob F: it is not required what we specify in communication
between application and RM, however the protocol should clarify that expiry is
a silent termination, different than the other text on termination. Stefan: I can agree with this. Ø
Action: Doug D to provide text to resolve I145. 7 Any other businessNone _______________________________________________________________________ Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. |
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