OASIS Mailing List ArchivesView the OASIS mailing list archive below
or browse/search using MarkMail.

 


Help: OASIS Mailing Lists Help | MarkMail Help

ws-rx message

[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]


Subject: Re: FW: [ws-rx] PR Issue 22: concrete proposal


The RMS has a full view of the state, since it assigned the numbers it 
"knows" the highwater mark. The RMD on the other hand doesn't have that.

I don't believe we are talking about an application-level "set of 
messages" - such a concept may not exist.

There is a simple concept, logically defined by our spec at the RM level 
- "what is the highest assigned message number on the RMS".

1. We clearly state that the RMS must assign message numbers in the 
order it receives those from the application, and the message numbers 
must start at 1 and increment by 1 each time.
2. Therefore the highest assigned message number at the RMS (HMN-RMS) is 
a well-defined concept.
3. The job of the RMS is to transmit all the messages that it receives 
from the application source.
4. The highest message number received by the RMD (HMN-RMD) is by 
definition less than or equal to the (HAMN-RMS). [HMN-RMD<=HMN-RMS]
5. In the case where the sequence is terminated and the HMN-RMD<HMN-RMS 
(strictly less than), then there are messages received by the RMS but 
not successfully transmitted to the RMD.
6. The RMS can raise an application fault to identify that these 
messages were not successfully acknowledged, but the RMD is currently 
unable to identify that there are untransmitted messages.


Doug Davis wrote:
>
> RMS sent 5 messages, it knows whether or not it got back all 5 acks - 
> it doesn't need an additional "did you get _all_ of my messages" 
> marker when Ack1-5 says the same thing. From the RMD perspective I 
> still claim there will have to be some application logic/flags that 
> says how many messages are in the "set of messages" that is totally 
> indepdent of RM - because otherwise how did the AD know that there are 
> only 5 messages in the case when RM is not being used at all? The 
> argument that the application requires this data implies that the 
> scenario will only work when RM is turned on - and I don't buy that. 
> W.r.t the RMD needing this info - as I said, I think the only case 
> _it_ needs it is when IncompleteSeqBehavior is set to 
> "discardEntireSequence". All other cases it just becomes interesting 
> (but useless) info.
>
> thanks,
> -Doug
>
>
>
> *"Gilbert Pilz" <gpilz@bea.com>*
>
> 10/31/2006 02:09 PM
>
> 	
> To
> 	<ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org>
> cc
> 	
> Subject
> 	FW: [ws-rx] PR Issue 22: concrete proposal
>
>
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
>
> Forwarded from Hal . .
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Hal Lockhart *
> Sent:* Tuesday, October 31, 2006 8:48 AM*
> To:* Gilbert Pilz*
> Subject:* RE: [ws-rx] PR Issue 22: concrete proposal
>
> I think that it is an absolute requirement that a reliable message 
> delivery service provide a mechanism by which both the sender and 
> receiver can determine if all the data has been received or not. Period.
>
> I think this is such an obvious, intuitive requirement, that anyone 
> not involved in this debate would immediately agree.
>
> {Sir, I am starting a new company called Reliable Package Delivery. 
> For a premium fee, we will deliver packages to you completely 
> undamaged, but we refuse to tell you whether or not you received all 
> the packages we were given which were addressed to you. Can I sign you 
> up as a customer?}
>
> The only reason for invoking IncompeteSequenceBehavior, was because an 
> argument had been put forward that somehow knowing if the data was 
> complete or not was “Application Information” and thus out of scope of 
> the spec. The existence of IncompeteSequenceBehavior demonstrates 
> conclusively that the TC does not consider this out of scope. It was 
> never intended as an argument that the only reason you need to know 
> whether or not you got all the data is to decide if you need to invoke 
> the IncompeteSequenceBehavior.
>
> Hal
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Doug Davis [mailto:dug@us.ibm.com] *
> Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2006 4:28 PM*
> To:* Gilbert Pilz*
> Cc:* ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org*
> Subject:* RE: [ws-rx] PR Issue 22: concrete proposal
>
> Well, I think there may need to be text that says.... if 
> IncompleteSequenceBehavior is 'discardEntireSequence' then either 
> Close or Terminate is required - otherwise, as you've noted, the RMD 
> will never be able to send on any messages to the AD. Any other value 
> of IncompletSeqBehavior doesn't have this requirement though.
> thanks,
> -Doug
>
> *"Gilbert Pilz" <gpilz@bea.com>*
>
> 10/30/2006 06:55 PM
>
> 	
> To
> 	Doug Davis/Raleigh/IBM@IBMUS
> cc
> 	<ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org>
> Subject
> 	RE: [ws-rx] PR Issue 22: concrete proposal
>
>
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Doug,
>
> W/respect to LastMsgNumber in CloseSequence; I can see your point. I 
> wouldn't object if you ammended our proposal to include LasMsgNumber 
> in CloseSequence.
>
> W/respect to TerminateSequence being required; if you ammend our 
> proposal to optionally include LasMsgNumber in CloseSequence, then the 
> requirement to always send TerminateSequence would go away. Clearly if 
> the CS message contains LastMsgNumber then the RMD will have enough 
> information to determine if it received all the messages in the sequence.
>
> - gp
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Doug Davis [mailto:dug@us.ibm.com] *
> Sent:* Monday, October 30, 2006 10:10 AM*
> To:* Gilbert Pilz*
> Cc:* ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org*
> Subject:* Re: [ws-rx] PR Issue 22: concrete proposal
>
>
> Gil,
> If we head this route I'd like to see a LastMsgNumber on the Close as 
> well so that we don't need to wait for a TerminateSequence before we 
> can know the final outcome of the Sequence - w.r.t. what we can 
> deliver to the app (ie. incompleteSeqBehvaior). This would mean that 
> either Close or Terminate would be required based on certain 
> IncompletSeqBehavior values.
> Also, on TerminateSequence being required....what does that mean 
> w.r.t. enforcement? Can we enforce it? What happens if it not sent? 
> Seems like its only really required for "DiscardEntireSequence" values 
> of IncompleteSeqBehavior, all others can still do their job w/o it, 
> no? Would it not make more sense to say that its required only when 
> needed by this flag to do its job?
> thanks
> -Doug
>
> *"Gilbert Pilz" <gpilz@bea.com>*
>
> 10/26/2006 03:48 PM
>
> 	
>
>
> To
> 	<ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org>
> cc
> 	
> Subject
> 	[ws-rx] PR Issue 22: concrete proposal
>
>
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Attached is a proposal for PR i022 in the form of a diff against CD-04.
> The main points are:
>
> 1.) wsrm:TerminateSequence has been expanded to include a mandatory
> LastMsgNumber element the value of which is, surprisingly enough, the
> number of the last message in the Sequence.
>
> 2.) Sending wsrm:TerminateSequence is now mandatory; basically the whole
> thing won't hold together unless the RMS is required to send a
> wsrm:TerminateSequence.
>
> <<wsrm-1.1-spec-pr-i022.pdf>>
> [attachment "wsrm-1.1-spec-pr-i022.pdf" deleted by Doug 
> Davis/Raleigh/IBM]
>

-- 
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology and Partnerships, WSO2 
OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair

http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
(646) 290 8050

"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com




[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]