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Subject: Re: [ws-rx] NEW ISSUE: retransmission


Doug

I like Gil's suggestion because the "lifetime" isn't defined.

If you are really concerned then we need different invariants for 
pre-close and pre-terminate I guess.

Paul

Doug Davis wrote:
>
> I think the new bullet is ok  - but since Acks can be sent even after 
> the Sequence is closed I think the change to line 230 is a bit 
> misleading.  Perhaps the original text for that is still ok?
> -Doug
>
>
>
> *Paul Fremantle <paul@wso2.com>*
>
> 11/03/2006 03:12 AM
>
> 	
> To
> 	Doug Davis/Raleigh/IBM@IBMUS
> cc
> 	"Patil, Sanjay" <sanjay.patil@sap.com>, Gilbert Pilz 
> <Gilbert.Pilz@bea.com>, ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject
> 	Re: [ws-rx] NEW ISSUE: retransmission
>
>
>
> 	
>
>
>
>
>
> Yeah I was struggling with that. I agree.
>
> Proposal (stolen from Gil and Sanjay):
>
> Change line 230 to read:
>
> "While the Sequence is not closed or terminated, the following
> invariants are REQUIRED for correctness:"
>
> Then add new bullet to be inserted after line 238 to read:
> "The RMS MUST retransmit unacknowledged messages".
>
> Paul
>
> Doug Davis wrote:
> >
> > Paul - your latest version:
> > >"The RMS MUST retransmit any messages that are unacknowledged in any
> > >received SequenceAcknowledgement messages".
> > can be read to impl that if I get an Ack for 1,3 and then an Ack for
> > 1,2,3 I MUST still send
> > message 2 because of the 2nd "any".
> > I agree with Sanjay, I think the simpler sentence actually covers it
> > better.
> >
> > thanks,
> > -Doug
> >
> >
> >
> > *"Patil, Sanjay" <sanjay.patil@sap.com>*
> >
> > 11/02/2006 07:52 PM
> >
> >                  
> > To
> >                  "Paul Fremantle" <paul@wso2.com>, Doug 
> Davis/Raleigh/IBM@IBMUS
> > cc
> >                  "Gilbert Pilz" <Gilbert.Pilz@bea.com>, 
> <ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > Subject
> >                  RE: [ws-rx] NEW ISSUE: retransmission
> >
> >
> >
> >                  
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > I thought your very first suggestion was simpler and sufficient --
> > "The RMS MUST retransmit unacknowledged messages".
> >
> > Why do we need to say more? Isn't receiving SeqAck the only way to
> > confirm acks?
> >
> > -- Sanjay
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Paul Fremantle [mailto:paul@wso2.com]
> > >Sent: Thursday, Nov 02, 2006 16:46 PM
> > >To: Doug Davis
> > >Cc: Gilbert Pilz; ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org
> > >Subject: Re: [ws-rx] NEW ISSUE: retransmission
> > >
> > >Ah good point.
> > >
> > >I was trying to distinguish between positively unacked
> > >messages (I have
> > >an ack but it doesn't include message 3) and the situation where I
> > >haven't yet got an ack.
> > >
> > >Is this any better?
> > >"The RMS MUST retransmit any messages that are unacknowledged in any
> > >received SequenceAcknowledgement messages".
> > >
> > >Paul
> > >
> > >Doug Davis wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Well, since Acks can be received out of order I don't think you want
> > >> to say "most recent".
> > >> I think sticking with just talking about "unacked" messages is safer.
> > >> thanks,
> > >> -Doug
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> *"Gilbert Pilz" <Gilbert.Pilz@bea.com>*
> > >>
> > >> 11/02/2006 07:35 PM
> > >>
> > >>                  
> > >> To
> > >>                  "Paul Fremantle" <paul@wso2.com>,
> > <ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > >> cc
> > >>                  
> > >> Subject
> > >>                  RE: [ws-rx] NEW ISSUE: retransmission
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>                  
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> May I suggest ammending your proposal in the following way:
> > >>
> > >> Change line 230 to read:
> > >>
> > >> "While the Sequence is not closed or terminated, the following
> > >> invariants are REQUIRED for correctness:"
> > >>
> > >> Then change the new bullet to be inserted after line 238 to read:
> > >>
> > >> "The RMS MUST retransmit any messages that are missing from the most
> > >> recent Acknowledgement Message".
> > >>
> > >> - gp
> > >>
> > >> " . . and nice red uniforms."
> > >>
> > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > From: Paul Fremantle [mailto:paul@wso2.com]
> > >> > Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 3:40 PM
> > >> > To: ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org
> > >> > Subject: [ws-rx] NEW ISSUE: retransmission
> > >> >
> > >> > We do not normatively state that any messages must be
> > >> > retransmitted unless the server Nacks them.
> > >> >
> > >> > Since the Protocol Invariants are there to explain how we
> > >> > actually ensure reliable transmission, that is the
> > >> > appropriate place to add this.
> > >> >
> > >> > Proposal:
> > >> >
> > >> > Add a new invariant:
> > >> > While the Sequence is not closed or terminated, the RMS must
> > >> > retransmit any messages that are missing from the most recent
> > >> > acknowledgement message.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > -------- Original Message --------
> > >> > Subject:                  [ws-rx] Potential new issue:
> > >retransmission
> > >> > Date:                  Wed, 01 Nov 2006 12:22:25 +0000
> > >> > From:                  Paul Fremantle <paul@wso2.com>
> > >> > Organisation:                  WSO2
> > >> > To:                  ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org
> > >> <ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > While looking at PR016, I could only find three places where we
> > >> > normatively define retransmission:
> > >> >
> > >> > 1. Upon receipt of a NACK, you must retransmit that message
> > >> > 2. Upon MessageNumberRollover, you must continue to
> > >> > retransmit messages
> > >> > 3. In the state tables, we have a state corresponding to this.
> > >> >
> > >> > Given that NACK is optional, MessageNumberRollover highly unlikely,
> > >> > doesn't seem like we've defined this very well!
> > >> >
> > >> > How about adding as a protocol invariant that the RMS must
> > >retransmit
> > >> > unacknowledged messages?
> > >> >
> > >> > Paul
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Paul Fremantle
> > >> > VP/Technology and Partnerships, WSO2
> > >> > OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
> > >> >
> > >> > http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
> > >> > paul@wso2.com
> > >> > (646) 290 8050
> > >> >
> > >> > "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Paul Fremantle
> > >> > VP/Technology and Partnerships, WSO2
> > >> > OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
> > >> >
> > >> > http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
> > >> > paul@wso2.com
> > >> > (646) 290 8050
> > >> >
> > >> > "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >--
> > >Paul Fremantle
> > >VP/Technology and Partnerships, WSO2
> > >OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
> > >
> > >http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
> > >paul@wso2.com
> > >(646) 290 8050
> > >
> > >"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> -- 
> Paul Fremantle
> VP/Technology and Partnerships, WSO2
> OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
>
> http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
> paul@wso2.com
> (646) 290 8050
>
> "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
>
>
>

-- 
Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology and Partnerships, WSO2 
OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair

http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
paul@wso2.com
(646) 290 8050

"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com




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