RE: [wsbpel-abstract] where is the dividing line?

["Ugo Corda" <UCorda@SeeBeyond.com>]

Additional clarification about my point of view on this matter:
In case 3 I can use something like BPMN. I can play with it and refine
it until I get to the point where complete executable BPEL can be
generate from it. So I can do case 3 without going through abstract BPEL
at all.

Ugo

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ugo Corda 
> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 11:53 AM
> To: Nickolas Kavantzas
> Cc: Rossomando, Philip; Monica J. Martin; 
> wsbpel-abstract@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [wsbpel-abstract] where is the dividing line?
> 
> 
> Time constraints are to be judged, of course, against 
> priorities. And different companies/customers have different 
> priorities.
> 
> Ugo
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Nickolas Kavantzas [mailto:nickolas.kavantzas@oracle.com]
> > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 11:46 AM
> > To: Ugo Corda
> > Cc: Rossomando, Philip; Monica J. Martin; 
> > wsbpel-abstract@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: Re: [wsbpel-abstract] where is the dividing line?
> > 
> > 
> > Kind of interesting that you are picking #3 as the use-case
> > for removing, based on time constraints.
> > 
> > Why then not remove use-case #1 or #2 based on time
> > constraints? I am not really sure how we can make this decision.
> > 
> > 
> > By talking to Oracle's customers, we are hearing very strong
> > feedback for supporting use-case #3.
> > 
> > 
> > Ugo Corda wrote:
> > 
> > > Forgot to give my reasoning: time constraints for
> > completion of our TC
> > > work.
> > >
> > > Ugo
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Ugo Corda
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 10:37 AM
> > > > To: Rossomando, Philip; Monica J. Martin
> > > > Cc: wsbpel-abstract@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > Subject: RE: [wsbpel-abstract] where is the dividing line?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I would remove #3 for now, and focus on the "external
> > description"
> > > > cases. If in the end it turns out that whatever we come
> > up with can
> > > > also apply (without ANY additional work on our part) to
> > case 3, all
> > > > the better.
> > > >
> > > > Ugo
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Rossomando, Philip [mailto:Philip.Rossomando@unisys.com]
> > > > > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 10:27 AM
> > > > > To: Monica J. Martin
> > > > > Cc: wsbpel-abstract@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > > Subject: RE: [wsbpel-abstract] where is the dividing line?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Good point Monica: Let's try to build a list. We'll add
> > and Then
> > > > > subtract from it until we reach consensus:
> > > > >
> > > > > My candidates are:
> > > > >                             1. The Customer: You are trying to
> > > > > convince                                       you understand
> > > > > his/her business
> > > > >                             2. Partners in the UDDI
> > manner suggested
> > > > > by SAP:                                Here is how I 
> > behave. If you
> > > > > want to do business                                    with
> > > > me, this is what
> > > > > you will have to do.
> > > > >                             3. Fellow developers/BPEL 
> Executable
> > > > > coders: Well
> > > > >                                John, here is the
> > business process as
> > > > > I                                      understand it. 
> > You add the
> > > > > details. I've added                                    some
> > > > hints/ideas but
> > > > > you fill in the blanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Others?
> > > > >
> > > > > Now the rules of the game are. Add something but say
> > why. Remove
> > > > > something But explain your reasoning.
> > > > >
> > > > > Phil Rossomando
> > > > >
> > > > > Research Director, Technology & Architecture
> > > > > Unisys Corporation
> > > > > Unisys Way, B-330
> > > > > Blue Bell, PA 19424 USA
> > > > > Philip.rossomando@unisys.com
> > > > > 215-986-3998
> > > > > FAX 413-0215-2043
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Monica J. Martin [mailto:Monica.Martin@Sun.COM]
> > > > > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 12:42 PM
> > > > > To: Rossomando, Philip
> > > > > Cc: Martin Chapman; wsbpel-abstract@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > > Subject: Re: [wsbpel-abstract] where is the dividing line?
> > > > >
> > > > > Rossomando, Philip wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Martin:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The point is I don't think it's a single dividing 
> line. As you
> > > > > >mentioned there are different audiences. What I
> > > > Personally see
> > > > > >is a layered structure with a movement From very abstract
> > > > to les and
> > > > > >less abstract until you Are at an executable BPEL level.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >At the highest abstraction
> > > > > >Level you may not only have syntactic abstraction but Also
> > > > > >semantic abstraction. Sort of writing on the back of A 
> > napkin. At
> > > > > >the next level semantic abstraction may become
> > > > > More crisp
> > > > > >but syntax may still be open to say leaving Things out. This
> > > > > would be
> > > > > >like the total implicit approach Mentioned by Satish. This
> > > > > level may be
> > > > > >where partner communication Takes place.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >At the next level lower you may start to add place
> > Holders. Sort
> > > > > >of sign posts for coders. Here I would like To see
> > something. You
> > > > > >might even add comments with suggestions To a coder sort of
> > > > > >constraining expectations. Finally at the
> > > > Lowest level
> > > > > >you may have full blown executable BPEL.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > mm1: Phil, I think we could provide some parameters on
> > the level
> > > > > and extent of abstraction if we could agree on the
> > audience we are
> > > > > targeting
> > > > >
> > > > > (which hones our uses cases, business requirements, etc).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > 
> > 
>