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Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Human editable BPEL?


This is exactly the kind of discussions it would be very useful to capture in an appropriate document, so that the various technology choices of the spec are presented in the context of a more complete background of alternatives, trade offs and relationship with other relevant technologies.

Ugo

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Satish Thatte [mailto:satisht@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 6:19 PM
> To: Ugo Corda
> Cc: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Human editable BPEL?
> 
> 
> We should have this discussion more systematically but in 
> general, neither conversation IDs nor instance IDs are 
> sufficient.  The "multi-start activities" example is one kind 
> of use case, where rendezvous occurs at activation hence 
> before the creation of any instance ID.  Consider also 
> multiway conversations, especially those where A-->B-->C-->A  
> types of communication loops occur.  What these need are 
> mechanisms for carrying context and "infecting" the right 
> instances with the context -- WS-Coordination has this as a 
> general mechanism.  The scope of such a coordination does not 
> in general coincide with the lifetime of a process instance.  
> You can think of correlation sets as a "poor man's context" 
> mechanism.  But I agree with the goal of reducing the scope 
> of explicit correlation if possible, but that would mean 
> dependency on some specific context mechanisms for two-way 
> conversations and multi-way coordination.  I would hate to 
> see us create some sort of meta model for context that has to 
> be mapped to concrete coordination layers.  Too much complexity.
> 
> 	-----Original Message----- 
> 	From: Ugo Corda [mailto:UCorda@SeeBeyond.com] 
> 	Sent: Sat 6/14/2003 5:24 PM 
> 	To: Satish Thatte 
> 	Cc: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org 
> 	Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Human editable BPEL?
> 	
> 	
> 
> 	That seems to say that you either have conversation IDs 
> at the transport level, or you need message-based 
> correlations. It does not seem to address the case where 
> instanceIDs are used at the application level (e.g. 
> leveraging the WS-Addressing mechanism, as hinted somewhere 
> else in the spec). Am I misreading the paragraph?
> 	
> 	Ugo
> 	
> 	> -----Original Message-----
> 	> From: Satish Thatte [mailto:satisht@microsoft.com]
> 	> Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 2:09 PM
> 	> To: Ugo Corda; Martin Chapman; Greg Ritzinger; 
> ygoland@bea.com;
> 	> Gnosis_@compuserve.com
> 	> Cc: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> 	> Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Human editable BPEL?
> 	>
> 	>
> 	> The first paragraph in 10.1 is what I would point to.
> 	>
> 	>       -----Original Message-----
> 	>       From: Ugo Corda [mailto:UCorda@SeeBeyond.com]
> 	>       Sent: Sat 6/14/2003 12:58 PM
> 	>       To: Satish Thatte; Martin Chapman; Greg Ritzinger;
> 	> ygoland@bea.com; Gnosis_@compuserve.com
> 	>       Cc: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> 	>       Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Human editable BPEL?
> 	>      
> 	>      
> 	>
> 	>       In my note I was referring more to the rationale for
> 	> choosing one approach over another. In the case of
> 	> correlation, for instance, the spec presents rationale for
> 	> why you need correlation at all, but not for why BPEL chose
> 	> the message-based approach over the correlationID approach
> 	> (or at least I was not able to find a clear explanation of
> 	> that in the current spec).
> 	>      
> 	>       Ugo
> 	>      
> 	>       > -----Original Message-----
> 	>       > From: Satish Thatte [mailto:satisht@microsoft.com]
> 	>       > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 10:32 PM
> 	>       > To: Martin Chapman; Ugo Corda; Greg Ritzinger;
> 	> ygoland@bea.com;
> 	>       > Gnosis_@compuserve.com
> 	>       > Cc: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> 	>       > Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Human editable BPEL?
> 	>       >
> 	>       >
> 	>       > Thank you Martin.  I did think that there is quite a
> 	> bit of rationale
> 	>       > given in the spec for most of the 
> "interesting" features like
> 	>       > properties
> 	>       > and correlation, and, at a higher level, abstract
> 	> processes.  It might
> 	>       > be useful to have a separate document that states
> 	> requirements and
> 	>       > rationale but it would be great to have specific
> 	> issues and questions
> 	>       > that people think need to be addressed in 
> such a document.
> 	>       >
> 	>       > Satish
> 	>       >
> 	>       >
> 	>       > -----Original Message-----
> 	>       > From: Martin Chapman 
> [mailto:martin.chapman@oracle.com]
> 	>       > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 10:10 AM
> 	>       > To: Ugo Corda; Greg Ritzinger; ygoland@bea.com;
> 	> Gnosis_@compuserve.com
> 	>       > Cc: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> 	>       > Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Human editable BPEL?
> 	>       >
> 	>       > but surely the best way to deal with this is to raise
> 	> an issue or
> 	>       > introduce
> 	>       > a new requirement.
> 	>       > Thats where the pros and cons can be discussed.
> 	>       > In the particular case of correllations, I think the
> 	> spec gives enough
> 	>       > rationale.
> 	>       >
> 	>       > Martin.
> 	>       > > -----Original Message-----
> 	>       > > From: Ugo Corda [mailto:UCorda@SeeBeyond.com]
> 	>       > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 9:59 AM
> 	>       > > To: Greg Ritzinger; ygoland@bea.com; 
> Gnosis_@compuserve.com;
> 	>       > > martin.chapman@oracle.com
> 	>       > > Cc: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> 	>       > > Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Human editable BPEL?
> 	>       > >
> 	>       > >
> 	>       > > At least it would be very useful to have a document
> 	> on rationales
> 	>       > > which describes why certain things are done in one
> 	> particular way
> 	>       > > out of other possible alternatives.
> 	>       > >
> 	>       > > Just to give an example, BPEL's current correlation
> 	> mechanism is
> 	>       > > based on message contents (see CorrelationSets). It
> 	> could be done
> 	>       > > instead using a correlationID abstract from 
> actual message
> 	>       > > contents (and in fact it seems that the current
> 	> spec hints at
> 	>       > > that as a future development based on
> 	> WS-Addressing). What is the
> 	>       > > rationale for the current choice? What are 
> the pros and cons
> 	>       > > compared to other solutions? etc.
> 	>       > >
> 	>       > > Ugo
> 	>       > >
> 	>       > > > -----Original Message-----
> 	>       > > > From: Greg Ritzinger 
> [mailto:GRitzinger@novell.com]
> 	>       > > > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 8:11 AM
> 	>       > > > To: ygoland@bea.com; Gnosis_@compuserve.com;
> 	>       > martin.chapman@oracle.com
> 	>       > > > Cc: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> 	>       > > > Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Human editable BPEL?
> 	>       > > >
> 	>       > > >
> 	>       > > >
> 	>       > > > If we are to review, fix and possibly change the
> 	> BPEL spec, then I
> 	>       > > > believe we need its companion 
> requirements spec. It would
> 	>       > be nice to
> 	>       > > > know why something was put into BPEL 
> before we attempt to
> 	>       > change or
> 	>       > > > remove it.
> 	>       > > >
> 	>       > > > Greg
> 	>       > > >
> 	>       > > > >>> "Martin Chapman" <martin.chapman@oracle.com>
> 	> 6/12/2003 5:32:15
> 	>       > PM
> 	>       > > > >>>
> 	>       > > > IMHO the requirements are pretty simple; review
> 	> the 1.1 spec, fix
> 	>       > any
> 	>       > > > bugs,
> 	>       > > > resolve ambiguities, and
> 	>       > > > if you want new stuff or if you want to 
> make radical
> 	>       > changes propose
> 	>       > > > new
> 	>       > > > requirements.
> 	>       > > > I trust the originators of the spec itself to
> 	> have done the
> 	>       > > > "meta" requirements exercise, for which BPEL4WS
> 	> 1.1 is the result.
> 	>       > > >
> 	>       > > > Martin.
> 	>       > > >
> 	>       > > > > -----Original Message-----
> 	>       > > > > From: David RR Webber - XML ebusiness
> 	>       > > > [mailto:Gnosis_@compuserve.com]
> 	>       > > >
> 	>       > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 9:34 AM
> 	>       > > > > To: Yaron Y. Goland
> 	>       > > > > Cc: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> 	>       > > > > Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Human editable BPEL?
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > > Yaron,
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > > There's another aspect to this - BPEL is it
> 	> seems primarily
> 	>       > > > > intended to be used internally - with only a
> 	> subset of the logic
> 	>       > > > > being shared externally.
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > > But what if that logic (that you built in your
> 	> IDE GUI) is not
> 	>       > > > > readable - or causes undesirable results - in
> 	> the IDE GUI
> 	>       > > > > of Product X - used by your partner?  
> Or your partners
> 	>       > > > > BPEL fragment causes bad results on 
> your system? But
> 	>       > > > > the models look just lovely!
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > > You need to look at the raw XML to figure out
> 	> why - and more
> 	>       > > > > to the point - interoperablity between products
> 	> requires a
> 	>       > > > > simpler subset.
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > > Broken record - if we get back to the
> 	> requirements - and if
> 	>       > > > > interoperability in this way is a key 
> requirement - then
> 	>       > > > > simpler syntax, and also levels of 
> conformance, are the
> 	>       > > > > way to go.
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > > Alternately you could just duck this whole
> 	> issue by using
> 	>       > > > > something like BPSS to do the external 
> coupling across
> 	>       > > > > processes.
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > > But we're still waiting for that unnamed
> 	> graduate student to
> 	>       > > > > produce for us the definative list of
> 	> requirements - so we
> 	>       > > > > can be crystal clear on all this.  What was his
> 	> name again?
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > > Thanks, DW.
> 	>       > > > > 
> ===================================================
> 	>       > > > > Message text written by "Yaron Y. Goland"
> 	>       > > > > >
> 	>       > > > > I remember in the late 1980s when everyone
> 	> argued that source
> 	>       > > > > code was dead
> 	>       > > > > and all programs would be written using UIs.
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > > I remember the early 1990s when 
> everyone argued that no
> 	>       > one would
> 	>       > > > ever
> 	>       > > > > directly author HTML.
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > > I also remember the late 1990s when everyone
> 	> (myself included =(
> 	>       > > > )argued
> 	>       > > > > that it didn't matter if XML was human editable
> 	> since everyone
> 	>       > would
> 	>       > > > use
> 	>       > > > > tools.
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > > It's funny how often everyone is wrong.
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > >         Just a thought,
> 	>       > > > >                         Yaron
> 	>       > > > > <
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > > >
> 	>       > > >
> 	>       >
> 	> 
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> 	>       > > >
> 	>       >
> 	> 
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> 	>      
> 	>
> 	>
> 	
> 
> 


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