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Subject: Re: [wsbpel] policy annotations and BPEL
Edwin Khodabakchian wrote: > Ron, > All this seems rather abstract to me so I will tend to agree with > Satish that we should not over engineer areas of the language where > the requirements are not cristal clear. Could you please provide a > detailed us case with associated WSDL, BPEL and Deployment Descriptor? mm1: Perhaps, Satish could also provide an example so we could understand both approaches, then determine if use cases are required. Thanks. > Thank you, > Edwin > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Ron Ten-Hove [mailto:Ronald.Ten-Hove@Sun.COM] > *Sent:* Monday, October 20, 2003 10:39 AM > *To:* Satish Thatte > *Cc:* wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org > *Subject:* Re: [wsbpel] policy annotations and BPEL > > Satish, > > Satish Thatte enscribed upon magnetic domains: > >> WS-Policy and general assertion mechanisms like it don’t force >> you to express requirements at any specific level of detail (such >> as XML canonicalization) — so the issue of detail vs high level >> intent seems like a red herring to me relative to that sort of >> general mechanism. >> > The WS-Policy framework certainly doesn't force this level of > specificity, but WS-SecurityPolicy certainly works at this level. > It was to WS-SecurityPolicy that I was referring. Is there an > alternative Policy vocabulary for "Security Intents" that you are > offering for discussion?[1] > >> I see two specific issues which I still don’t see addressed >> >> 1. BPEL processes are not self-sufficient. They have >> dependencies on WSDL and other related artifacts. Whatever >> the level of intent at which one wants to express QoS >> requirements, they need to be expressed uniformly for the >> package of related artifacts >> > This assertion (the need for uniform expression) seems to > contradict your prior assertion, that business intent can be > modelled using the WS-Policy framework. I am confused: what are > you advocating? > > Regardless, it is true that we are creating a constellation of > inter-related artifacts that are needed to describe a working > system. The real issue we are debating is: where is the most > appropriate location in this constellation for QoS intentions, as > well as QoS details. Lumping them together in a single, uniform > declaration seems an unnatural act. The lower-level details > expressable in WS-SecurityPolicy are an implementation of the > higher-level intents. There is a strong coupling between the > business process and the QoS intentions that are a logical part of > that process. There is a strong coupling between the QoS details > and the service descriptions. Thus my assertion that lumping them > together is an unnatural act: it is poor architecture. > > Perhaps some of our disagreement stems from some unstated > assumptions. Your arguments certainly make more sense if we look > only at run-time considerations, and ignore the design-time. Is > this case? > >> 1. >> 2. Your approach requires us to invent a private BPEL notation >> for high level QoS requirements which I think is a rathole >> in itself, and one where others will undoubtedly assert >> prior initiative if not ownership >> > I have already proposed such a notation; it is not complex, nor, > in itself controversial. The real rathole is debating the > applicability of this approach to a set of proprietrary > specifications that have different architectural ideas. This is > not in the scope of the TC, nor is it in the best interests of the > standards-setting process. > > I'm not sure to whom you refer, when you state that "other will > undoubtedly assert prior initiative..." Is there a need to set up > a liason with some other standards TC / WG? > >> 1. >> >> I won’t get into the fuzziness argument but I don’t equate >> abstraction with fuzziness ;-) >> > Then we "agree to disagree" on this point; I wasn't looking > forward to "dictionaries at twenty paces." :-) > > -Ron >
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