[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]
Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Issue 190 - BPEL Internal Faults (New Proposed Issue Announcement)
Alex,
I agree with what you say except I would rather not call it "fault" because a normal fault does not cause a process to freeze. Our terminate semantics is as close to a freeze as possible already. But if we want to rename terminate as something else (actually didn't we rename it exit already?) that captures the intent better I have no issues with that.
As for how the intention is expressed, that will clearly have to be platform specific. We don't have any official notion of deployment descriptor, but it would have to be some sort of extension or external configuration parameter, which I think is what you intended to say.
Satish
________________________________
From: Alex Yiu [mailto:alex.yiu@oracle.com]
Sent: Thu 2/10/2005 8:45 PM
To: Satish Thatte
Cc: ygoland@bea.com; Francisco Curbera; Prasad Yendluri; Danny van der Rijn; wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org; alex.yiu@oracle.com
Subject: Re: [wsbpel] Issue 190 - BPEL Internal Faults (New Proposed Issue Announcement)
Hi, Satish,
If I read Satish's comments correctly, then I would say it is more fair to say:
The semantics on how to handle a BPEL fault no longer is "exit"/"quit"/"terminate".
The process basically "freezes" / "suspend" before any further code execution. Then, it is up to the BPEL implementation / BPEL site admin / BPEL developer to decide what to do with this "freezed" or "suspended" process.
And, I may add more question: May their decision be just the plain old default "compensate and rethrow" semantics in BPEL 1.1? Can their decision be expressed by a deployment descriptor? or extension attribute in BPEL?
Regards,
Alex Yiu
Satish Thatte wrote:
There are two points at issue here.
1. Are undefined-runtime-semantics "faults" really faults in the sense
that one would write specific catch handlers for things like
conflictingReceive, or correlationViolation in the same way as one would
write catch handlers for approvalDenied?
2. Admitting that undefined-runtime-semantics "faults" will occur since
we do not mandate pessimistic static analysis to prevent them, what
exactly is a reasonable way to deal with these "faults"?
I would hope that we have no disagreement that specific handlers for
correlationViolation and such would be extremely rare. CatchAll is the
way these "faults" would be intercepted if at all. And in that context
there is very little one can do except suppress the fault, i.e., limit
its impact, and possibly notify someone that it happened. I have not
seen anyone argue otherwise.
The primay disagreement seems to be about the second question, and
especially about the tradeoff between the approaches of
A. Explicitly define impact boundaries ("modularity" entered the
discussion as an example for such boundaries) even for
undefined-runtime-semantics "faults" and within those boundaries apply
the usual unravel and compensate logic that gets applied by default.
B. There is no reasonable way to define the impact boundaries in most
cases and in a lot of important processes the usual unravel and
compensate logic would create unintended havoc and destroy years of work
if blindly allowed to proceed by default and oversight.
By the way, neither approach helps as far as letting a partner know what
is going on in cases like missingReply. For that we would have to go
back to my suggestion of explicitly declaring MEP instances in scopes
and then defining standard wire-faults in case an MEP instance went out
of scope without completing. To be clear, I am *not* suggesting we go
down that road at this point.
I don't think we can settle this with arguments based on examples
because "allowing ordinary compensation to proceed" can be viewed as
being either desirable or disastrous depending on the scenario you have
in mind.
I disagree with Yaron that his setting#1 which corresponds to my
approach B is possible today without preventing the BPEL engine from
actually carrying out prescribed runtime semantics. But I agree with
him that the two approaches need to be made possible via some
platform-specific switch, i.e., made compatible with BPEL normative
semantics. One way is to extend our notion of "terminate" to include
optional fault data. I would then argue that a BPEL engine is free to
provide a (private) switch that chooses between
terminate-then-optionally-repair-and-continue behavior as well as
auto-convert-terminate-to-fault-and-continue behavior.
Satish
-----Original Message-----
From: Yaron Y. Goland [mailto:ygoland@bea.com]
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 12:13 PM
To: Francisco Curbera
Cc: Prasad Yendluri; Danny van der Rijn; wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [wsbpel] Issue 190 - BPEL Internal Faults (New Proposed
Issue Announcement)
I think the core of the problem is another part of our ever increasing
elephant.
Lots of systems are going to have a magic switch that I strongly
encourage us not to attempt to specify in BPEL both because it's at
least 80% out of scope and because it will take a long time to agree on
the semantics.
That switch will specify (either on a process level or perhaps a scope
level) what to do if certain kinds of faults are thrown. One of the key
faults this switch will focus on are system faults.
This switch will typically have at least two settings.
Setting #1 - If a system fault is thrown immediately freeze the process
and call the admin for help who can then edit the process to fix things.
Setting #2 - If a system fault is thrown then send a note to the admin
but let the fault go through the normal fault handlers.
Both the first and second settings are possible with the existing spec.
The first behavior through an out of scope operational override and the
second behavior is pretty much our default behavior.
Issue 190 would make the second setting effectively impossible since it
would be illegal to ever allow system faults to go through normal fault
handling. But as Alex and others have convincingly argued there are many
interesting cases in which it makes sense to allow system faults to go
through normal fault handling.
In terms of maximizing portability I think we should stick with our
current behavior and leave the 190 style behavior to out of scope
extensions.
Yaron
Francisco Curbera wrote:
I guess one of the points of the immediate termination condition is
that
termination is essentially always invisible to partners of the
process. The
net effect of this change (and from my perspective the actual aim of
this
proposal) would be to allow engines the flexibility to deciding how to
deal
with these situations, termination being an option. Any form of
standard
fault semantics limit that flexibility because the engine would be
forced
to follow the usual scope termination/fault propagation behavior with
likely the result of discarding many recoverable process instances -
and
posisble days or months of process work.
Paco
Prasad
Yendluri
<pyendluri@webmet To: Francisco
Curbera/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
hods.com> <mailto:pyendluri@webmetTo:FranciscoCurbera/Watson/IBM@IBMUShods.com> cc: Danny van der
Rijn
<dannyv@tibco.com> <mailto:dannyv@tibco.com> , wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [wsbpel]
Issue 190
- BPEL Internal Faults (New Proposed Issue
02/04/2005 02:30
Announcement)
PM
Hi,
1. Isn't this the same issue as the one raised by issue 187 where we
ask if
there are any constraints in handling of the standard faults? This is
proposing a specific resolution where it is recommended that the
process
always terminates immediately.
2. I tend to side with Danny on this. I don't think we should require
that
the process terminates immediately always. IMO in at least certain
cases
this may not be a fatal situation for the whole process (it could be
confined to the scope) and other parts of the process may be able to
continue by compensating for pertinent. Perhaps the impact could
limited to
the immediately confining scope and the process could continue,
perhaps the
area the fault occurred could be non-fatal to whole process (e.g.
related
look-up rather than modification of any information) or caused by some
transient condition that could go away on a retry etc. I think the
process
(fault handler) should be given a chance to handle the situation
rather
than terminate always.
3. If we do end-up going the "terminate" always way, we must minimally
*not* preclude logging the condition, which could be more intelligent
if
the faults could be attached some "fault data" (ref issues 187 and
185).
Regards, Prasad
-------- Original Message --------
Subject Re: [wsbpel] Issue 190 - BPEL Internal Faults (New Proposed
Issue
: Announcement
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:23:17 -0500
From: Francisco Curbera <curbera@us.ibm.com> <mailto:curbera@us.ibm.com>
To: Danny van der Rijn <dannyv@tibco.com> <mailto:dannyv@tibco.com>
CC: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
Hi Danny,
BPEL so far does not support any technique for modularizing process
authoring, so the situation you describe is a bit out of scope right
now.
In any case, my view is that the idea that authors of business process
are
going to be adding code to deal with things like unsupportedReference
is
just not realistic. I would even argue that those faults don't
actually
belong at the BP modeling level and need to be dealt with in a
different
way.
Dieter's suggestion allows implementations to manage these situations
in
the best possible way. This is specially important in the case of
long
running processes, where months or years of work can be thrown out the
window when one of these faults is encountered (the current semantics
require the complete unwinding of the execution stack if the fault is
not
caught and a generic catch all is essentially good for nothing).
Typically
you want to allow manual intervention to figure out whether the
process can
be repaired, terminated if not.
Paco
>From: Danny van der Rijn
>To: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
>cc:
>Subject: Re: [wsbpel] Issue 190 - BPEL Internal Faults (New
Proposed
Issue Announcement
02/03/2005 01:47 PM
[Resending this with appropriate header to save Tony/Peter the
trouble]
-1
As I pointed out in our last face to face, this kind of approach will
make
any kind of modularization extremely difficult. It will give no way
for a
developer of a piece of BPEL code to protect against the "modelling
error"
(legacy term: "programming error") of another modeller whose attempt
to
model the real world failed in a tangible instance.
Danny
Tony Fletcher wrote:
This issue has been added to the wsbpel issue list with a status
of
"received". The status will be changed to "open" if the TC
accepts it
as identifying a bug in the spec or decides it should be
accepted
specially. Otherwise it will be closed without further
consideration
(but will be marked as "Revisitable")
The issues list is posted as a Technical Committee document to
the
OASIS WSBPEL TC pages on a regular basis. The current edition,
as a
TC document, is the most recent version of the document entitled
in
the "Issues" folder of the WSBPEL TC document list - the next
posting
as a TC document will include this issue. The list editor's
working
copy, which will normally include an issue when it is announced,
is
available at this constant URL.
Issue 190: BPEL Internal Faults
Status: received
Date added: 3 Feb 2005
Categories: Fault handling
Date submitted: 3 February 2005
Submitter: Dieter Koenig1
Document: WS-BPEL Working Draft, December, 2004
Related Issues: Issue 163 : languageExecutionFault, Issue 169 :
Transition condition error handling clarification, and Issue 187
:
Legality of Explicitly throwing or rethrowing Standard faults.
Description:
There are a number of cases in the current spec where the
behavior of
a process is described as *undefined*, in particular, after
recognizing internal errors described as standard faults.
With the exception of "bpel:joinFailure", *all* of these
situations
represent modelling errors that cannot be dealt with by the
business
process itself in a meaningful way. This behavior becomes even
more
questionable for catchAll handlers that try to deal with
multiple
application faults and unexpectedly encounter a standard fault.
Submitter's proposal: Instead of allowing processes to catch
these as
standard faults, we propose that the process instance must
*terminate* immediately when such a situation is encountered.
The behavior of terminate is well-defined in BPEL -- as far as
BPEL
is concerned the instance execution ends when terminate is
encountered without any fault handling behavior. Any additional
facilities for extended support for, e.g., repair and continue,
is
definitely out of scope.
This approach would also create a clear direction for dealing
with
any pathological situation within an inlined language (Issue
163) and
therefore also for errors within transition conditions (Issue
169).
Changes: 3 Feb 2005 - new issue
Best Regards,
Tony
To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster
of the
OASIS TC), go to
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsbpel/members/leave_workgr
oup.php.
To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster of
the OASIS TC), go to
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsbpel/members/leave_workgr
oup.php.
To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster of the OASIS TC), go to http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsbpel/members/leave_workgroup.php.
[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]