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Subject: Re: [wsbpel] Issue 82.1 - proposal to vote (directional vote)


Hi Charlton,

This is exactly the misconception I was hoping to avoid.

I refer to the 'two distinct languages' note below. One is simply a 
partial view on the other, with the common parts having the same semantics.



Charlton Barreto wrote:
> +1 to Alex and Ron. Abstract and Executable BPEL represent two distinct 
> languages, each with its own syntax. Each ought to be described by its 
> own schema, and thus belong to its own namespace.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Ron Ten-Hove [mailto:Ronald.Ten-Hove@Sun.COM]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 29, 2005 1:44 PM
> *To:* Rania Khalaf
> *Cc:* 'wsbpeltc'
> *Subject:* Re: [wsbpel] Issue 82.1 - proposal to vote (directional vote)
> 
> Rania,
> 
>     I have to disagree about using a single name space. Although the 
> abstract and execution languages are similar, they are *not *the same. 
> Forcing them into the same name space will be confusing, and make 
> existing schema-aware tools less useful, since will have to depend on 
> semantics where simple syntax could have sufficed.
> 
>     We shouldn't dismiss dual schemata as as impractical. There are 
> several approaches to this that avoid the horrors of cut-and-paste.Other 
> TCs have tackled similar problems; I'm sure this TC can as well.
> 
> -Ron
> 
> Rania Khalaf wrote:
> 
>> Hi Alex,
>>
>> I think going with the second point, that it doesn't make much sense 
>> to split the namespaces. Especially, as Yuzo had mentioned, that most 
>> tools don't support advanced XSD features and as Danny also said if 
>> there's no really compelling reason to manage several XSDs and changes 
>> we should try to keep it simple.
>>
>> As for cut and paste, the ns decl is up top anyway, so in many cases a 
>> cut and paste is just that and people will be able to copy bits with 
>> opaque in them.
>>
>> my .02.
>> rania
>>
>> Alex Yiu wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I think we should still have distinct namespaces between Abstract and 
>>> Executable BPEL, after most of 82.* got resolved. Major reasons are:
>>>
>>>     *  There are _significant amount of syntax differences_ between an
>>>       Abstract Process with _opacityOmissionUsed="yes"_ and Exec
>>>       Process. (I am talking about the Abstract base, not AP11 profile;
>>>       essentially all compulsory element and attributes becomes 
>>> optional.).
>>>     * On the other hand, there are _moderate amount of syntax
>>>       differences_ between an between an Abstract Process with
>>>       _opacityOmissionUsed="no"_ and Exec Process. (I already capture
>>>       those differences in my previous email).
>>>     * I am worrying people uses _copy-and-paste and mix-and-match
>>>       between Abstract and Executable BPEL_. (e.g. copying a fragment of
>>>       empty <scope> from an Abstract BPEL into Exec BPEL). If we use the
>>>       same namespace for both kinds of BPEL, it would be difficult for
>>>       us to tell that users are doing this kind of mistakes. If we use
>>>       different namespace, if people use an XML-aware tool to do such a
>>>       copy-and-paste, we can detect that kind of mistakes more easily.
>>>     * With both AP11 and Template profiles, I tend to forseee people
>>>       would create the Executable Process based on Abstract Process with
>>>       sometool help, given with constraints specified in the profile.
>>>       Even when people want to create an Executable BPEL based on
>>>       Abstract BPEL with just emacs/notepad. People just need to 
>>> following:
>>>          1. copy the BPEL file
>>>          2. _make one-line of change_: changing XMLNS declaration from
>>>             Abstract to Exec BPEL.
>>>          3. add extra BPEL constructs for Execution Completion.
>>>
>>>             Having two distinct namespace will allow us to _validate the
>>>             Exec BPEL code during step (3) by using XSD_. Hence, having
>>>             multiple NS gives us more tool to do BPEL validation, while
>>>             collapsing Abstract and Executable do not yield any user
>>>             benefits.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Alex Yiu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter Furniss wrote:
>>>
>>>> I thought we said (or maybe it was just me) that we should revisit 24
>>>> once we had sorted out (in 82.*) just how much difference there was
>>>> between syntax e and syntax a. When issue 24 was resolved we were
>>>> anticipating a quite different scale of differences.  I had to drop out
>>>> of active involvement in 82 soon after that, I do think we should
>>>> consider rescinding 24 (sorry Diane)
>>>>
>>>> Peter
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Rania Khalaf [mailto:rkhalaf@watson.ibm.com] Sent: 22 
>>>>> November 2005 16:28
>>>>> To: Alex Yiu
>>>>> Cc: wsbpeltc; Rania Khalaf; Danny van der Rijn; Ron Ten-Hove; 
>>>>> 'Monica J. Martin'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [wsbpel] Issue 82.1 - proposal to vote (directional vote)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>
>>>>> If we agree about the schema of abstract will only add the opaque 
>>>>> tokens then I don't see any motivation any more for 24's resolution .
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it really worth all the pain of xsd:redefine and managing three 
>>>>> schemas instead of just saying in the text that you can only use 
>>>>> abstract tokens in AP ?
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>> Rania
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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