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Subject: RE: [wsrf] Singleton Resource Pattern
- From: Steve Graham <sggraham@us.ibm.com>
- To: "Sedukhin, Igor S" <Igor.Sedukhin@ca.com>
- Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:30:00 -0400
now I am confused. Is your scenario
suggesting that UserName is a resource property or the identifier of the
user record in the database?
++++++++
Steve Graham
(919)254-0615 (T/L 444)
STSM, On Demand Architecture
Member, IBM Academy of Technology
<Soli Deo Gloria/>
++++++++
| "Sedukhin, Igor S" <Igor.Sedukhin@ca.com>
07/12/2004 05:25 PM
|
To:
Steve Graham/Raleigh/IBM@IBMUS
cc:
Rich Thompson/Watson/IBM@IBMUS, <wsrf@lists.oasis-open.org>
Subject:
RE: [wsrf] Singleton Resource Pattern |
It does not know what is the "key".
It does not need to. Using WS-RP it knows that there is a UserName property
and its data type (from the WSDL) and it just asks <GetProperty>UserName</GetProperty>
and receives a response. That is what the client wants to know. The client
sends WS-Security headers just like it would otherwise, without any relation
to the WS-RP.
I don't understand how an EPR
would help this scenario...
--
Igor Sedukhin
..
(igor.sedukhin@ca.com)
-- (631)
342-4325 ..
1 CA Plaza, Islandia, NY
11788
From: Steve Graham [mailto:sggraham@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 5:11 PM
To: Sedukhin, Igor S
Cc: Rich Thompson; wsrf@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrf] Singleton Resource Pattern
how does the client know that UserName is the proper lookup "key"
to the stateful resource? How does the client know which values of UserName
are valid?
With the EPR approach, this is not an issue for the client.
sgg
++++++++
Steve Graham
(919)254-0615 (T/L 444)
STSM, On Demand Architecture
Member, IBM Academy of Technology
<Soli Deo Gloria/>
++++++++
| "Sedukhin, Igor S"
<Igor.Sedukhin@ca.com>
07/12/2004 04:22 PM
|
To: Steve Graham/Raleigh/IBM@IBMUS
cc: Rich Thompson/Watson/IBM@IBMUS,
<wsrf@lists.oasis-open.org>
Subject: RE: [wsrf]
Singleton Resource Pattern |
All what the client needs to understand is that there is a UserName property
and that GetProperty message could be sent. The rest is regular Web services
techniques and mechanisms. What WS-RP could add to that mix is a normative
defiition of how to retreive a propery value and how to find out what properties
are there.
One could combine the above with WS-Addressing or not. That should not
affect semantics defined by WS-RP.
--
Igor Sedukhin
..
(igor.sedukhin@ca.com)
-- (631)
342-4325 ..
1 CA Plaza, Islandia, NY
11788
From: Steve Graham [mailto:sggraham@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 4:15 PM
To: Sedukhin, Igor S
Cc: Rich Thompson; wsrf@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrf] Singleton Resource Pattern
Clearly we cannot prevent implementors from doing this sort of thing.
However, by specifying the mechanism with an EPR, we standardize ONE approach
to combining the Web service address and the component that properly identifies
or disambiguates the stateful resource. The approach you suggest
requires much more understanding on the client's part on the association
between the WS-Security header, proper values of that header and the web
service. Having the EPR eliminates this additional burden on the
client's application.
sgg
++++++++
Steve Graham
(919)254-0615 (T/L 444)
STSM, On Demand Architecture
Member, IBM Academy of Technology
<Soli Deo Gloria/>
++++++++
| "Sedukhin, Igor S"
<Igor.Sedukhin@ca.com>
07/12/2004 03:50 PM
|
To: Rich Thompson/Watson/IBM@IBMUS,
<wsrf@lists.oasis-open.org>
cc:
Subject: RE: [wsrf] Singleton
Resource Pattern |
Why is X.509 certificate in a WS-Security header not a sufficient means
for referring to a proper "user" database record?
The property is shared, there is one service, and there are multiple "records".
Why can't I use WS-ResorceProperties spec to access UserName property without
having to deal with stateful/stateless situation?
It seems that ANYTHING in a message (body or a header) could be such "stateID".
There may be no reason to set in stone what that is. Leave it to the implementers.
--
Igor Sedukhin
..
(igor.sedukhin@ca.com)
-- (631)
342-4325 ..
1 CA Plaza, Islandia, NY
11788
From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 3:40 PM
To: wsrf@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrf] Singleton Resource Pattern
But with the stateless character of web services, that UserName property
would be shared by all users of the web service. There may be some usefulness
to that, but it becomes far more useful when the web service interface
fronts access to a multiplicity of state, each storing such a property.
To make this a concrete example, presume the UserName property is really
a reference to a field in a database. One could provide a separate web
service interface for each record within the database, but it would be
a much lighter (and frequently more useful) definition if there was a single
web service interface that had some well defined means for indicating what
record of the database was the target of the current invocation. WSRP had
this type of need and had to define a means that is idiosyncratic to our
protocol for passing the stateful reference. Defining a standardized means
by which infrastructure can take more of the load for handling such references
is one of the outcomes I would like to see from the WSRF effort.
Rich Thompson
OASIS WSRP TC Chair
"Sedukhin, Igor S"
<Igor.Sedukhin@ca.com>
07/12/2004 03:15 PM
|
To
| Rich Thompson/Watson/IBM@IBMUS,
<wsrf@lists.oasis-open.org>
|
cc
|
|
Subject
| RE: [wsrf] Singleton Resource
Pattern |
|
Like I said, GetProperty would mean for example:...
Web Service implements a UserName property. Client sends a GetResourceProperty
SOAP message with WS-Security headers containing X.509 certificate. Web
Service returns the UserName after matching the certificate.
--
Igor Sedukhin
..
(igor.sedukhin@ca.com)
-- (631)
342-4325 ..
1 CA Plaza, Islandia, NY
11788
From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 3:03 PM
To: wsrf@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrf] Singleton Resource Pattern
What would get/setProperty mean against the standard stateless character
of the base Web Services definition? Before these become useful, you need
some manner of modeling state. It seems to me the primary thrust behind
defining WSRF is having a standard definition of how to model such stateful
web services and as someone who has needed to idiosyncratically model state
within the WSRP protocol, I see a lot of value in that effort.
Rich Thompson
OASIS WSRP TC Chair
"Sedukhin, Igor S"
<Igor.Sedukhin@ca.com>
07/12/2004 02:55 PM
|
To
| Steve Graham/Raleigh/IBM@IBMUS
|
cc
| <wsrf@lists.oasis-open.org>
|
Subject
| RE: [wsrf] Singleton Resource
Pattern |
|
Then what value does the implied pattern add to the use case I have included?
Why does resource pattern have to depend on WS-Addressing, EPRs and customizations
of those?
Why can't GetProperty/SetProperety be defined independently?
--
Igor Sedukhin
..
(igor.sedukhin@ca.com)
-- (631)
342-4325 ..
1 CA Plaza, Islandia, NY
11788
From: Steve Graham [mailto:sggraham@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 2:44 PM
To: Sedukhin, Igor S
Cc: wsrf@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrf] Singleton Resource Pattern
>It seems that whether it is an "implied resource" or an "implied
singleton" has nothing to do with GetResourceProperty (GetProperty
for that sake) operation. In >other words use of WS-Addressing does
not add any semantic value to the fact that one could retrieve a property
by sending a message to a service.
Unfortunately, I disagree. The implied resource pattern clarifies
a certain pattern relating a web service and a stateful resource. It is
important that this pattern is clarified to allow a single web service
to act as the Web services message processor for a plurality of stateful
resources. Therefore the pattern of the message is formed to disambiguate
which of the potentially many stateful resources is associated with the
message is very important.
sgg
++++++++
Steve Graham
(919)254-0615 (T/L 444)
STSM, On Demand Architecture
Member, IBM Academy of Technology
<Soli Deo Gloria/>
++++++++
| "Sedukhin, Igor S"
<Igor.Sedukhin@ca.com>
07/12/2004 11:56 AM
|
To: Steve Graham/Raleigh/IBM@IBMUS,
<wsrf@lists.oasis-open.org>
cc:
Subject: RE: [wsrf] Singleton
Resource Pattern |
Steve,
Your example was interesting. How about this one:
Web Service implements a UserName property. Client sends a GetResourceProperty
SOAP message with WS-Security headers containing X.509 certificate. Web
Service returns the UserName after matching the certificate.
-- Is this a singleton or an implied resource pattern? One could claim
that there is a user resource, however this interaction does not use WS-Addressing
and moreover it would not be possible to build WS-RF qualified EPRs for
such interaction.
The same use case could be modified to include UserDiskQuota property,
and the same argument would apply.
It seems that whether it is an "implied resource" or an "implied
singleton" has nothing to do with GetResourceProperty (GetProperty
for that sake) operation. In other words use of WS-Addressing does not
add any semantic value to the fact that one could retrieve a property by
sending a message to a service.
--
Igor Sedukhin
..
(igor.sedukhin@ca.com)
-- (631)
342-4325 ..
1 CA Plaza, Islandia, NY
11788
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