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Subject: Re: [wsrf] Groups - wsrf-ws_resource-1.2-spec-wd-08.doc uploaded (fwd)
Mark et al, Another posting from Mark. I will answer in line at the same time as posting. First wrt your earlier mail, a lot of the issues surrounding the notion of what a resource is have been addressed in the recent drafts. What a resource actually can be is much the same as the W3C model. However, all the semantic around WSRF focus on the WS-Resource and the associated MEPs. Have a look during our final Public review (starting this afternoon hopefully). On 15 Sep 2005, at 20:51, Mark McKeown wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > Afraid I bounced again - I have got e-mails saying > I am part of the TC! > > If my input starts to be a hindrence rather than a help > let me know and I will stop - I cannot tell from the > postings on the list if the TC wants to move on... > > cheers > Mark > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Mark Mc Keown RSS > Mark.McKeown@man.ac.uk Manchester Computing > +44 161 275 0601 University of Manchester > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:45:22 +0100 (BST) > From: Mark McKeown <zzalsmm3@nessie.mcc.ac.uk> > To: "Wilson, Kirk D" <Kirk.Wilson@ca.com> > Cc: ian_robinson@uk.ibm.com, wsrf@lists.oasis-open.org > Subject: RE: [wsrf] Groups - wsrf-ws_resource-1.2-spec-wd-08.doc > uploaded > > > +1 to the comments by Kirk, they were things that confused me > on reading wd 08. > > I have some futher comments to add regarding the use of the > EPR in the example included in wsrf-ws_resource-1.2-spec-wd-08.doc: > > <wsa:EndpointReference> > <wsa:Address> > http://www.example.com/service > </wsa:Address> > <wsa:ReferenceParameters> > <tns:SomeDisambiguatorElement>R1</tns:SomeDisambiguatorElement> > </wsa:ReferenceParameters> ? > . > </wsa:EndpointReference> > > > Given this EPR the client does not know weither the > SomeDisambiguatorElement element is being used to > identify him, ie the client, or being used to map > messages to state by the service provider. > (ReferenceParameters are supposed to be opaque - so > he shouldn't be looking anyway) The example is just for guidance. The EPR is opaque. We even discussed something like: > <wsa:ReferenceParameters> > <tns:ghfhrd>ggdtsr53674534</tns:ghfhrd> > </wsa:ReferenceParameters> ? But it didn't seem to make things any clearer. > From my understanding of ReferenceParameters they > are similar to HTTP cookies ie. they are used to > support stateful interactions. > > So a client who is given a EPR that contains > ReferenceParameters should not share the EPR as > the ReferenceParameters may be client specific, > ie they might be used by the service provider > to identify which client sent the message. > So EPRs with ReferenceParameters should not be put > into public or shared ServiceGroups/registries, just > as bad things can happen if you share your cookies. I don't see a problem here. If as a client I have put an RP in the EPR, this one is not opaque and I can remove it before storing it in a registry. RP's have many functions, some opaque and not. > I think this is why the W3C think that cookies > should not be used to identify resources as it reduces > the visibility of the system. This is one of the advances that WS-Addressing adds. At present many URI/HTTP based systems use cookies to identify the resource at the end of an http request, i.e. bunches of identification data not in the URI - so much for the pure URI model. The WS-A EPR actually helps this problem by providing a standard wrapper for all this stuff. > Am I mistaken. Should the WSRF TC recommend that WS-Resource > implementors not use ReferenceParameters to map messages > to particular state? I think this is an implementation choice. I know of several implementations that don't use the RPs - others that do. > (I believe this is an issue that Hugo Haas raised in > the WS-Addressing WG - > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-addressing/2004Dec/0051) > > > Is the use of EPRs as references to WS-Resources mandatory - > ie. should the word MUST be used. (Currently only a SOAP binding > has been defined for WS-Addressing - ie HTTP and Plain Old XML > cannot be used to implement WSRF using EPRs) This is an interoperability issue. Eventually there will be other WS-A bindings. > > cheers > Mark > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Mark Mc Keown RSS > Mark.McKeown@man.ac.uk Manchester Computing > +44 161 275 0601 University of Manchester > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Wilson, Kirk D wrote: > >> As someone said earlier, this is a "black hole". I apologize, the >> conversation on this doc went a little too fast and was not all that >> audible for me to jomp in on the telephone. I was thinking about the >> text and you had moved onto the BaseFaults discussion. >> >> Two things: >> 1. The third bullet says: "If access to the lifecycle of the >> resource >> is exposed through the WS-Resource, ..." I thought there was a >> clarification given earlier in the day that the lifecycle of the >> resource is NOT that which is exposed through WS-RL--just the >> lifecycle >> (Destroy) of the WS-Resource. We really can't infer anything about >> the >> lifecycle of the resource. This statement should be rephrased to be >> consistent with the clarification. >> >> 2. I find the diagram in 2.2.1 confusing because it is incomplete. >> It >> shows a single Web service and two resources. However, it doesn't >> have >> any representation of the "WS-Resource" associated with the Web >> service >> and the resource identified by R1. Is the Ws-Resource in 1:1 >> association with the Web Service and 1:m with the resources? Or is >> the >> Web service in 1:m association with WS-Resources, each of which has a >> 1:1 association with the resources? (I believe the answer is the >> later, >> but neither the diagram nor the text makes these associations clear. >> Note, as well, that the text says "The Web service provides access to >> two resources..." That's the role of the WS-Resource, which, IMHO, >> further confuses the discussion. >> >> Sorry for the delay in getting you these comments. >> >> Kirk Wilson >> Architect, Development >> Office of the CTO >> 802 765-4337 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ian_robinson@uk.ibm.com [mailto:ian_robinson@uk.ibm.com] >> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 11:39 AM >> To: wsrf@lists.oasis-open.org >> Subject: [wsrf] Groups - wsrf-ws_resource-1.2-spec-wd-08.doc uploaded >> >> The document named wsrf-ws_resource-1.2-spec-wd-08.doc has been >> submitted >> by Dr Ian Robinson to the OASIS Web Services Resource Framework (WSRF) >> TC >> document repository. >> >> Document Description: >> WS-Resource spec - wd-08 >> >> View Document Details: >> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsrf/document.php? >> document_ >> id=14466 >> >> Download Document: >> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsrf/download.php/14466/ >> wsr >> f-ws_resource-1.2-spec-wd-08.doc >> >> >> PLEASE NOTE: If the above links do not work for you, your email >> application >> may be breaking the link into two pieces. You may be able to copy and >> paste >> the entire link address into the address field of your web browser. >> >> -OASIS Open Administration >> > > > > > -- Take care: Dr. David Snelling < David . Snelling . UK . Fujitsu . com > Fujitsu Laboratories of Europe Hayes Park Central Hayes End Road Hayes, Middlesex UB4 8FE +44-208-606-4649 (Office) +44-208-606-4539 (Fax) +44-7768-807526 (Mobile)
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