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Subject: Re: [wsrm] comment on 1.085jdak
Jacques took an action item to post a document for review by thursday evening. Tom Rutt Doug Bunting wrote: > I suspect it will be necessary and useful to go one step further than > "An RMP MUST be able to distinguish which SOAP MEP is being used when > sending or receiving a Reliable Message." We need to explicitly state > any WSDL instance describing the relevant Consumer interface defines > the wire-level for the Reliable Message. That is, "The Sending RMP > MUST use the SOAP MEP (as defined in Section 2.3) corresponding to the > WSDL operation associated with this Reliable Message." > > I would also recommend resurrecting table 5.2 though not as a table. > I do not believe the current drafts explicitly state the restriction > that "the Response RM-Reply Pattern MUST NOT be used when the relevant > Consumer WSDL is a one-way operation". This seems important and > should not need to be inferred from other restrictions in our > specification. Words to that effect should appear in Section 2.4.1 > (or earlier). > > A few additional comments on draft "1085jdak"[1] (using lines from the > PDF[2]): > > - At line 411 (in Section 2.4.2), the MEP restrictions on the Callback > message itself (the publication) have been lifted. This implies it is > possible for the Sending RMP to respond in some way to this message > but we have not described any purpose for such a response. Since this > SOAP message is almost always (apart from the "bundle" case discussed > in Section 4.4, see below) an RMP signal and nothing else, this > restriction should stand for the general case. It should, however, be > overridden in the case where a Response and Reliable Message are > combined -- meaning the Reliable Message constraints "win" when > bundled. I recommend this change to step 2 not be made. > > Generally, the Consumer interface description controls the sending of > a Reliable Message and, optionally, its response. That interface or > WSDL instance does not describe how other RMP signals are exchanged. > We do, however, need to clearly describe these exchanges in this > specification -- without multiple options. > > - For this section and the next, we probably need to also be explicit > about the soap:Body being empty (and the lack of attachments) for all > steps in the sequences in the Callback and Poll RM-Reply Patterns but > the first. That is, no application content may be bundled with the > callback publication or poll request / response (except in the single > bundle we define later). > > - At line 416 (in Section 2.4.3), the requirements on SOAP MEP support > have been changed and made overly broad. These requirements should > now be closer to the previous edit, though widened a bit: "... the > SOAP One-way MEP MUST be supported. When using the "synchronous" > option described below or when a Consumer payload is expected, the > RMPs MUST also support the SOAP request-response MEP." > > - At lines 425 and 429, the MEP restrictions on the asynchronous Poll > request and response have been lifted. Similarly to line 411, these > extensions do not enhance interoperability and instead leave confusing > options open. Unlike the Callback case, our protocol does not support > bundling a Poll request or response with a Reliable Message. > Therefore, I recommend this change to steps 2 and 3 not be made. > > - At line 932 (in Section 4.4), we introduce the idea of combining a > Callback message with an unrelated Reliable Message. This paragraph > should describe whether the Callback RM-Reply Pattern (ie. the > original Reliable Message) or the new Reliable Message decides the > SOAP MEP for this message. An additional sentence such as "The > restrictions described in step 2 of Section 2.4.2 are not relevant for > such a message; the Reliable Message is exchanged as it would without > the additional (Response) element." might do it. > > - At line 1033 (in Section 4.5), the changes combine to leave us with > "When a Reliable Message is sent over a SOAP Request-response MEP > (regardless of the RM-Reply Pattern value), a Consumer response > payload is therefore expected, and ..." Why not simply "When a > Reliable Message is sent using a SOAP Request-response MEP and ..."? > Perhaps a "(regardless of the RM-Reply Pattern used)" bit could be > added but the rest is redundant. > > - Starting at line 1417 (in Section 6.2), a number of reminders that > each message must be sent using the "HTTP POST method" appear. Since > such requirements have already been made for the general case (the > bullets at line 1320 in Section 6, for example), these additions seem > unnecessary. The early references to the examples also do not seem as > clear as the previous bulleted list of steps. > > - The new bullets as line 1430 seem correct but should be placed in > Section 6 as they cover the general case. What is necessary in the > sections specific to the RM-Reply Patterns is an explanation of and > introduction to the examples. BP 1.0, SOAP, HTTP and WSDL have > already been documented quite thoroughly, as has our general mapping > from our generic SOAP MEPs to HTTP exchanges. > > - editorial: At line 1432, "then" is always unnecessary with a simple > "if" clause. Most of these have been removed from the document, > making this sentence inconsistent with the rest of the specification. > This is one example of a more general need to repeat a number of > editorial fixes (removing spaces and unnecessary "join" words mostly) > before we are done. > > More generally, who is doing what at the moment? I have seen no email > among the previous editing team and cannot quite grasp the outcome of > our teleconference from either my time on the call or the preliminary > minutes. > > thanx, > doug > > [1] > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsrm/download.php/8746/WS-Reliability-1085-jdak.sxw > > [2] > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsrm/download.php/8747/WS-Reliability-1085-jdak.pdf > > > On 18-Aug-04 16:45, Jacques Durand wrote: > >> inline >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tom Rutt [mailto:tom@coastin.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 10:46 AM >> To: wsrm >> Subject: [wsrm] comment on 1.085jdak >> >> >> In general I like the approach taken by Jacques. >> >> My only concern is that the figures 9, 10, and 11 in the http binding >> section for callback and poll do not show >> the rm-operations for Respond. >> >> Either: >> - the figures can be clarified as examples illustrating the use in the >> one-way soap mep case (the easiest approch), with an explanation that >> the corresponding figures for request/response mep are not shown, or >> - change to a new set of figures which have a dotted respond arrow with >> an explanation that the respond arrow is only used for request/response >> mep. >> >> <JD> I'll keep track of these proposed updates in case Iwasa cannot >> do them for >> teh contribution by tomorrow. >> >> In any case there needs to be a statement that the sending and receiving >> RMP must know when an application response is required for the >> operation. >> >> <JD> Yes, although the need to "know" which SOAP MEP is used when >> sending a >> Reliable Message, has always been there due to the fact that the >> sender (and receiver) needs to distinguish which SOAP MEP is used >> with the Response reply pattern ( One-way MEP not allowed). The >> Receiving RMP also had to distinguish (for handling of SOAP Faults) >> >> (see lines 1027-1046), although we could argue that just looking at the >> RM Reply Pattern used was a sufficient - yet not error proof - way to >> figure this out (no longer the case in this contribution as Callback >> and Poll can be used on either MEP) >> >> So we may want to make this more explicit. >> I'll suggest a line in Section 2.3, after L382, saying: >> "An RMP MUST be able to distinguish which SOAP MEP is being used when >> sending or receiving a Reliable Message." >> Hamid reassures me that this is well supported by the WS stacks, >> whether an >> RMP is implemented as a handler or an end-point (e.g. SOAP node) >> so there is no need to specify further how the RNP gets this knowledge >> (implementation specific) (see my previous email). >> >> Jacques >> >> >> >> >> Tom Rutt >> >> -- >> ---------------------------------------------------- >> Tom Rutt email: tom@coastin.com; trutt@us.fujitsu.com >> Tel: +1 732 801 5744 Fax: +1 732 774 5133 >> >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster >> of the OASIS TC), go to >> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsrm/members/leave_workgroup.php. >> > > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster > of the OASIS TC), go to > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsrm/members/leave_workgroup.php. > > -- ---------------------------------------------------- Tom Rutt email: tom@coastin.com; trutt@us.fujitsu.com Tel: +1 732 801 5744 Fax: +1 732 774 5133
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