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Subject: Revised Minutes for 6-11-03
- From: Rex Brooks <rexb@starbourne.com>
- To: wsrp-markup@lists.oasis-open.org
- Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:14:43 -0700
Title: Revised Minutes for 6-11-03
Greetings,
Per Rich Thompson I have changed the note
about last week's meeting to change CSS classes
to start with "portlet-" and not "wsrp-" as this
made them more reasonably shared with other efforts (such as JSR
168). If there are no further corrections, after to today's TC
meeting, I will ask the OASIS Webmaster to link this message for the
minutes to the public webpage for the SC.
June 11, 2003
Teleconference meeting of the OASIS WSRP-Markup Subcommittee.
Wednesdays, 8 am PST / 11 am EST / 5 pm
CET, 1 hour
US dial in #: 1.888.481.3032
International Dial in #: 1.617.801.9600
Participant Passcode: 28614774
Roll Call:
Attending:
Rex Brooks, Independent, co-chair
Andre Kramer, Citrix Systems, co-chair
Noah Guyot, Vignette
Chris Braun, Novell
Minutes taken by Rex Brooks
Meeting convened 11:05 a.m. Eastern Time
Rex apologized for not having posted
minutes from previous week's meeting, indicating that there was little
to report other than that the CSS classes needed to have the wsia-
prefix changed to portlet- and that the revised charter would be
corrected and submitted to the TC for the following day's TC
meeting.
Andre noted that the time in the calendar for the meeting was wrong,
indicating 12:00 pm ET and Rex said that he would change the time to
11:00 am ET for the next meeting.
We welcomed Chris Braun back from his leave of absence and we are
pleased that we will have his support.
Most of the meeting was occupied in discussion of the post forwarded
by Dan Machak of TIBCO of TIBCO developer Nicolas Prade's comments on
the CSS classes.
That message follows:
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 10:55:35 -0700
From: "Danny Machak" <dmachak@tibco.com>
Reply-To: dmachak@tibco.com
Organization: Tibco Software Inc.
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
To: Rex Brooks <rexb@starbourne.com>
CC: Nicolas Prade <nprade@tibco.com>
Subject: CSS Feedback
X-Rcpt-To: <rexb@starbourne.com>
X-DPOP: Version number supressed
Status: U
Hello Rex,
One of our developers has started working with the CSS rules and
has
some specific feedback for you to consider in updating the spec
and/or
developing the guidelines for CSS usage:
=======================================================================
10.6. CSS Style Definitions
This chapter started as a good idea, but unfortunately is too
uncomplete
to be of any help to portlet developpers. The requirements set here
are
too vague and unclearly defined. If I am a portlet writer, I do not
have
enough info to guess how a portal engine will interprete my classes.
If
I am a portal developper, I do not have enough info to safely
process
the classes in a way compatible with what the portlet writer
expected.
* If this spec wants to set requirements related to what CSS
classes
should be provided, it should therefore also provide guidance on
what
these CSS classes can/should be used for. There shoud be a formal
definition for each class, including:
1) The semantics associated with each
class (e.g., what kind of animal is
the "section" that
portlet-section-header refer to?).
2) The context in which each class can be used
(e.g., an element of class
portlet-section-header
can or cannot be included in the
corresponding
element of class portlet-section-body).
3) A clear example of use for each class would not hurt.
* All the classes required by this spec should be clearly useful.
For
example, what justifies the existence of the class portlet-font?
the
definition of this class should explain why (see point 1 above).
* The classes required by this spec should be clearly
non-redundant,
both in relation to each other and in relation to the existing CSS
selectors. For example, what justifies the existence of the series
of
portlet-table-... classes? With the lack of further information on
the
semantics (the actual purpose) of these classes, those could be
abandonned either in favor of the use of the existing CSS
selectors
(TABLE, TH, TD, etc) or in favor of the apparently redundant series
of
portlet-section-... classes.
10.6.1 Links (Anchor)
Just as we dont need a class for A, we just do not need any class
for
any HTML element, or anything else that already has a CSS selector.
For
example, if I want to process in a special way all the TABLE
elements
present in the HTML fragment of a portlet, I can declare a selector
at
the level of the portlet containers (i.e.
somewhere out of the scope of
this spec) and use inheritance:
<style type="text/css"> .portlet
TABLE {
/*styles for tables in portlets */ }
....
<div class="portlet">fragment
starts...<table>...</table>
...fragment
stops</div>
10.6.2 Fonts
There is no neecd for having a portlet-font class (see right
above).
10.6.3 Messages
This seems to collides with portlet-font, portlet-section-body,
etc.
10.6.4 Sections
1) What exactly is a section??? There is no clear semantics
associated
with this concept, therefore portlet developpers cannot be expected
to
use it, or at least to use it consistently. If this cannot be used
consistently, this goes against the very goal of WSRP.
2) What is valid where? Example: Can I place a
portlet-section-alternate
inside a portlet-section-body, or should they actually alternate
themselves?
3) How does portlet-section-text differ from portlet-section-body.
10.6.5 Tables
Not needed. Same as for <A>
10.6.6 Forms
1) What is the use of portlet-form-label?
2) What are the definitions for portlet-icon-label,
portlet-dlg-icon-label, portlet-form-field-label.
3) "(not input field, e.g. checkboxes, etc)". This could
be
be more explicit.
10.6.7 Menus
Menus are not part of any other spec, so it is indeed a good idea
to
provide classes for each of their components. Still, this section is
not
perfect yet:
1) Need clarification on the use of portlet-menu. What does it
cover
that is not already covered in the next classes, for example
portlet-menu-item?
2) I am somewhat suprised not to find the classes
portlet-menu-cascade-item-hover and
portlet-menu-cascade-item-hover-selected.
-- Thanks, Nicolas
======================================================================= Dan
It was decided by consensus that we will work on recommendations for
the CSS classes over summer.
Our aim will be to simplify the classes and address the issues raised
by Nicolas' message.
Noah identified some inconsistent browser
behavior, particularly with font size in Internet Explorer v5
and Netscape Navigator v4.7 series respectively. Mozilla and IE6 both
behave more consistently, but it was noted that we need to cast our
recommendations in terms that are more, rather than less,
inclusive.
Of the specific items in Nicolas' message we agreed that we should not
recommend classes that simply duplicate HTML rules, or can be less
redundantly specified by CSS selectors, but that we need to explore
the set of classes we have more thoroughly before we decide on
recommendations.
We looked at the concern that the section class was not well defined
and we decided we will look into whether we need this class, or if
what Nicolas suggests is sufficient, and we will similarly examine
concerns related to the other items in Nicolas' message.
In his work, particularly in relation to
'Section 508' accessibility issues, Noah indicated that current
thinking among leading HTML developers is that <H> tags can be
used as a hierarchy to define divisions such as he thought we might
have envisioned demarcating with the section class.
Noah also indicated that he would have time
after July 8 to work on building a set of examples from Vignette. We
agreed that we should encourage member companies to supply examples
for the TC to use in the primer, and specifically for the Markup SC to
provide for the primer.
It was noted that there appears to be
adequate need for distinguishing table classes for portlets because we
see two common types in practice. Structural tables are used for
general design layout purposes. Data tables are used for organizing
and displaying data values.
We agreed that we should look for some guidance on Forms from the
Interop SC and that we should mention that to the TC at the next
TC meeting.
In regard to Menus we also want to ask for guidance from Interop and
Conformance SCs as to whether it should be specified that javascript
classes be constrained to occur only within <HEAD> tags and not
within the <BODY> of a portlet because that is not valid
XML.
We agreed that we will pursue a policy of
drafting the clearest definitions we can for CSS Classes and Fragment
Rules and present them with examples for use in the
primer.
The meeting adjourned at 11:35 p.m. Eastern Time.
--
Rex Brooks
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison, Berkeley, CA, 94702 USA, Earth
W3Address: http://www.starbourne.com
Email: rexb@starbourne.com
Tel: 510-849-2309
Fax: By Request
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