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Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,and CAN su pport edit







At the Sept F2F in Germany we explicitly made state change independent of
mode. Another reason that edit mode can not become a MUST is that we
decided Consumer generated UIs for personalization had to be supported by
the spec. Entities with a planned deployment to only such an environment
should not be required to implement their own UI as well.

I could be talked into dropping this level to a CAN, but would resist.
While I will argue it can not be required, I also think entity developers
should think carefully and develop significant reasons before deciding not
to implement edit mode. This is exactly the meaning of SHOULD. Dropping it
to CAN would make it totally optional ... I think good reasons are needed
when choosing not to implement edit mode (and that they are possible).

Rich Thompson
Interaction Middleware and Standards for Portal Server
IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Yorktown Heights, NY
(914) 945-3225
richt2@us.ibm.com




                                                                                                                   
                      "Tamari, Yossi"                                                                              
                      <yossi.tamari@sap        To:       wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org                            
                      .com>                    cc:                                                                 
                                               Subject:  RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,    
                      12/02/2002 01:39          and CAN su     pport edit                                          
                      PM                                                                                           
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                   



Hi Gil,

I probably don't understand your question, but the entityStateChange is
already in InteractionParams, and I think one of the reasons for this was
specifically this use case.
If my memory serves me well, Sasha raised this in the F2F in Germany.
Where do you see the problem?

    Yossi.
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Gil Tayar [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
      Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 8:34 PM
      To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
      Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and
      CAN su pport edit

      Ouch! So the entityStateChange is relevant for view mode too? The
      Consumer can't assume that state change won't occur in view mode?
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Tamari, Yossi [mailto:yossi.tamari@sap.com]
            Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002 20:30
            To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
            Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,
            and CAN su pport edit

            Hi,

            For 1, my answer is that an entity may support personalization
            through its view mode (for example by simply remembering the
            last values a user entered in a text input).

                Yossi.
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC
                  [mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL]
                  Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 6:59 PM
                  To: 'Gil Tayar'; wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                  Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support
                  help, and CAN su pport edit

                  Hello,

                  FWIW. I guess that the questions are:

                  1. Are we allowing personalization for an entity that
                  doesn't support the Edit mode (if so, how)?
                  2. Are there other reasons, not personalization, for
                  supporting an Edit mode?

                  Take care.

                  Joe


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Gil Tayar [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
                        Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 11:58 AM
                        To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                        Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD
                        support help, and CAN su pport edit

                        Let's go that route -

                        Edit mode is defined (5.10.2) as "[providing]
                        content and logic that let a user customize the
                        behavior of the entity". Let's define
                        personalization as "enabling the user to customize
                        the behavior of the entity".

                        Thus, the sentence "the entity MUST support edit
                        mode if it allows personalization" becomes "the
                        entity MUST support content and logic that let a
                        user customize the behavior of the entity if it
                        enables the user to customize the behavior of the
                        entity".

                        The expanded sentence above is almost a tautology,
                        except for the fact that entities may enable
                        customization of their behaviors out-of-band. Thus,
                        an entity that enables the user to customize the
                        behavior of the entity out-of-band may want NOT to
                        support WSRP content and logic that does the same
                        (i.e. edit mode), for various reasons.

                        So, given the above precise definitions, I still
                        think this is a SHOULD.

                        Gil
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC
                              [mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL]
                              Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002 18:35
                              To: 'Gil Tayar';
                              wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                              Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity
                              SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit

                              Hello,

                              It would seem that we have to describe what
                              the edit mode is for (personalization?) in
                              unambiguous terms somewhere. Sometimes, I am
                              a bit afraid that we are using a lot of
                              "SHOULDS" to cover uncertainty and ambiguity
                              when it is up to us to know (or at least act
                              like we know) the right answer.

                              Thoughts?

                              Take care.

                              Joe Rudnicki

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Gil Tayar
                                    [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
                                    Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 11:09
                                    AM
                                    To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                                    Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An
                                    entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su
                                    pport edit

                                    A MUST of this sort would need to
                                    really describe what "personalization"
                                    is, and I wouldn't want to go to that
                                    route! With a SHOULD, I think we can go
                                    with a vague definition of
                                    "personalization".
                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC
                                          [mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL]

                                          Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002
                                          17:55
                                          To: 'Tamari, Yossi';
                                          wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                                          Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164]
                                          An entity SHOULD support help,
                                          and CAN su pport edit

                                          Hello,

                                          Perhaps, "...MUST support edit
                                          mode if it allows
                                          personalization?"

                                          Take care.

                                          Joe


                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Tamari, Yossi
                                                [mailto:yossi.tamari@sap.com]

                                                Sent: Sunday, December 01,
                                                2002 1:18 PM
                                                To:
                                                wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org

                                                Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia]
                                                [I#164] An entity SHOULD
                                                support help, and CAN su
                                                pport edit

                                                I second this. Many
                                                entities simply do not have
                                                (need) an edit mode. A "Top
                                                business news" portlet may
                                                not be personalizable.
                                                Maybe the wording should be
                                                "... SHOULD support edit
                                                mode if it allows
                                                personalization".

                                                    Yossi.
                                                      -----Original
                                                      Message-----
                                                      From: Gil Tayar
                                                      [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]

                                                      Sent: Sunday,
                                                      December 01, 2002
                                                      1:13 PM
                                                      To:
                                                      wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org

                                                      Subject: [wsrp-wsia]
                                                      [I#164] An entity
                                                      SHOULD support help,
                                                      and CAN support edit

                                                      Issue: 164
                                                      Status: Active
                                                      Topic: interface
                                                      Class:
                                                      Minor_Technical
                                                      Raised by: Gil Tayar
                                                      Title: An entity
                                                      SHOULD support help,
                                                      and CAN support edit
                                                      Date Added:
                                                      1-Dec-2002
                                                      Document Section:
                                                      v0.85/5.10
                                                      Description:
                                                      In v0.85, an entity
                                                      SHOULD support both
                                                      edit and help. I
                                                      think SHOULD for edit
                                                      is too strong a
                                                      recommendation, as it
                                                      puts a fantastic
                                                      burden on the
                                                      portlets. As Help is
                                                      very simple to
                                                      implement, I think
                                                      the wording should be
                                                      changed to: "an
                                                      entity SHOULD support
                                                      help, and CAN support
                                                      edit".

                                                      Gil Tayar
                                                      WebCollage




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