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Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,and CAN su pport edit


Title: Message
And not to beat a dead horse (my favorite activity), RFC2119 also says:
 
6. Guidance in the use of these Imperatives

   Imperatives of the type defined in this memo must be used with care
   and sparingly.  In particular, they MUST only be used where it is
   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  For
   example, they must not be used to try to impose a particular method
   on implementors where the method is not required for
   interoperability.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Tayar [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 1:50 PM
To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit

Echoing Eilon's reasoning, is that I would rather let the market decide
whether this is a SHOULD or a MAY, and not the WSRP committee. If the market
decides it's a SHOULD (i.e. most Consumers will need it, and therefore most
portlets will code it), then maybe in one of the following versions we need
to rethink the "MAY" decision. If the market decided _against_ it, then we
would be glad that we decided to stick by "MAY".

I definitely agree with you on the "help"...

-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 19:41
To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su
pport edit







Yes ... that is why I said I could be talked into MAY (probably said CAN at
the time, but it actually is MAY). On a slightly less abstract level, there
are many places where we encourage a behaviour essentially in order to
provide more uniform user experiences. That is the essense of why I favor
SHOULD ...

By the way, whichever way we decide this should also be applied to help,
minimized and maximized .... same logic will apply.

Rich Thompson


                      "Eilon Reshef"

                      <eilon.reshef@webc        To:       Rich
Thompson/Watson/IBM@IBMUS                           
                      ollage.com>               cc:
<wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>                         
                                                Subject:  RE: [wsrp-wsia]
[I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,   
                      12/04/2002 12:29           and CAN su     pport edit

                      PM




Rich,

The challenge I'm having regarding this SHOULD/MAY decision is that
typically MUST/SHOULD/MAY refer to a compliant implementation. I agree that
a compliant implementation of a portlet SDK SHOULD allow developers to
create EDIT mode.

However, the situation we're facing in this area (as well as in other areas
in the spec), is that we end up putting constraints on the portlet
developer. That is, the portlet developer may have perfectly valid reasons
for not using EDIT mode (without "understanding the full implications").
Examples that were brought up include lack of need for personalization, but
also simple benefit versus cost considerations (e.g., if only 2% of my users
configure my portlet, would I spend 20% more development time on this
feature or would I rather focus on adding more appealing functionality to
the portlet?).

Another way to look at it is that technology-wise, implementing EDIT mode is
completely optional (MAY). Business-wise, we are trying to drive more people
do develop EDIT mode, and hence we want to influence them to spend this
extra effort by suggesting it's important.

I believe the spec should focus on the technology. That, WSRP-wise, a
portlet developer MAY (or may not :-) develop EDIT mode. I.e., Consumers
"MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does not
include the (EDIT) option". Although we may want to encourage developers to
put EDIT mode, that's a business decision and IMHO me should let our
respective companies' marketing department take care of that part of the
education.

Eilon




-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 7:53 AM
To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su
pport edit

RFC2119 defines SHOULD as:
         "This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
   may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
   particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
   carefully weighed before choosing a different course."
while MAY is defined as:
        "This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is
   truly optional.  One vendor may choose to include the item because a
   particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that
   it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item.
   An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be
   prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does
   include the option, though perhaps with reduced functionality. In the

   same vein an implementation which does include a particular option
   MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which
   does not include the option (except, of course, for the feature the
   option provides.)"


My argument in favor of SHOULD is that those cases where it makes sense to
not implement edit mode need to be carefully thought through. Limitations on
deployment and ability of the user to personalize the entity need to be
understood before making this choice. The choice is still available, just
not completely up to the whim of the developer. Rich Thompson




                      Gil Tayar

                      <Gil.Tayar@webcol        To:
wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                      lage.com>                cc:

                                               Subject:  RE: [wsrp-wsia]
[I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,
                      12/03/2002 11:58          and CAN su     pport
edit
                      PM








Rich,
I totally agree on the must, and the new issues you raised clinch it for

me.
On the CAN issue, we must not forget that WSIA is in this too. A SHOULD
requirement for every portlet to implement state change is a bit heavy on
the Producer who just doesn't need that capability. To use your argument
-
entities with a planned deployment to Consumers who manage their own
personalization UI would not need to do this, but nevertheless, the spec

recommends them to do so.
Gil
-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Tue, December 03, 2002 15:54
To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su
pport edit







At the Sept F2F in Germany we explicitly made state change independent of
mode. Another reason that edit mode can not become a MUST is that we decided
Consumer generated UIs for personalization had to be supported by the spec.
Entities with a planned deployment to only such an environment

should not be required to implement their own UI as well.
I could be talked into dropping this level to a CAN, but would resist. While
I will argue it can not be required, I also think entity developers should
think carefully and develop significant reasons before deciding not to
implement edit mode. This is exactly the meaning of SHOULD. Dropping it to
CAN would make it totally optional ... I think good reasons are needed when
choosing not to implement edit mode (and that they are possible). Rich
Thompson Interaction Middleware and Standards for Portal Server IBM T.J.
Watson Research Center Yorktown Heights, NY
(914) 945-3225
richt2@us.ibm.com






                      "Tamari, Yossi"
                      <yossi.tamari@sap        To:
wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                      .com>                    cc:
                                               Subject:  RE: [wsrp-wsia]

[I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,
                      12/02/2002 01:39          and CAN su     pport
edit
                      PM








Hi Gil,
I probably don't understand your question, but the entityStateChange is
already in InteractionParams, and I think one of the reasons for this was
specifically this use case. If my memory serves me well, Sasha raised this
in the F2F in Germany. Where do you see the problem?
    Yossi.
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Gil Tayar [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
      Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 8:34 PM
      To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
      Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and
      CAN su pport edit
      Ouch! So the entityStateChange is relevant for view mode too? The
      Consumer can't assume that state change won't occur in view mode?
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Tamari, Yossi [mailto:yossi.tamari@sap.com]
            Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002 20:30
            To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
            Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,
            and CAN su pport edit
            Hi,
            For 1, my answer is that an entity may support personalization
            through its view mode (for example by simply remembering the

            last values a user entered in a text input).
                Yossi.
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC
                  [mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL]
                  Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 6:59 PM
                  To: 'Gil Tayar'; wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                  Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support
                  help, and CAN su pport edit
                  Hello,
                  FWIW. I guess that the questions are:
                  1. Are we allowing personalization for an entity that
                  doesn't support the Edit mode (if so, how)?
                  2. Are there other reasons, not personalization, for
                  supporting an Edit mode?
                  Take care.
                  Joe


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Gil Tayar [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
                        Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 11:58 AM
                        To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                        Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD
                        support help, and CAN su pport edit
                        Let's go that route -
                        Edit mode is defined (5.10.2) as "[providing]
                        content and logic that let a user customize the
                        behavior of the entity". Let's define
                        personalization as "enabling the user to customize
                        the behavior of the entity".
                        Thus, the sentence "the entity MUST support edit

                        mode if it allows personalization" becomes "the
                        entity MUST support content and logic that let a

                        user customize the behavior of the entity if it
                        enables the user to customize the behavior of the
                        entity".
                        The expanded sentence above is almost a tautology,
                        except for the fact that entities may enable
                        customization of their behaviors out-of-band. Thus,
                        an entity that enables the user to customize the

                        behavior of the entity out-of-band may want NOT to
                        support WSRP content and logic that does the same
                        (i.e. edit mode), for various reasons.
                        So, given the above precise definitions, I still

                        think this is a SHOULD.
                        Gil
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC
                              [mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL]
                              Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002 18:35
                              To: 'Gil Tayar';
                              wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                              Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity

                              SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit

                              Hello,
                              It would seem that we have to describe what
                              the edit mode is for (personalization?) in

                              unambiguous terms somewhere. Sometimes, I am
                              a bit afraid that we are using a lot of
                              "SHOULDS" to cover uncertainty and ambiguity
                              when it is up to us to know (or at least act
                              like we know) the right answer.
                              Thoughts?
                              Take care.
                              Joe Rudnicki
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Gil Tayar
                                    [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
                                    Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 11:09
                                    AM
                                    To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                                    Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An
                                    entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su
                                    pport edit
                                    A MUST of this sort would need to
                                    really describe what "personalization"
                                    is, and I wouldn't want to go to that
                                    route! With a SHOULD, I think we can go
                                    with a vague definition of
                                    "personalization".
                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC
[mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL]
                                          Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002
                                          17:55
                                          To: 'Tamari, Yossi';
                                          wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org

                                          Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164]
                                          An entity SHOULD support help,

                                          and CAN su pport edit
                                          Hello,
                                          Perhaps, "...MUST support edit

                                          mode if it allows
                                          personalization?"
                                          Take care.
                                          Joe


                                                -----Original
Message-----
                                                From: Tamari, Yossi
[mailto:yossi.tamari@sap.com]
                                                Sent: Sunday, December 01,
                                                2002 1:18 PM
                                                To:
wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                                                Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia]

                                                [I#164] An entity SHOULD

                                                support help, and CAN su

                                                pport edit
                                                I second this. Many
                                                entities simply do not have
                                                (need) an edit mode. A "Top
                                                business news" portlet may
                                                not be personalizable.
                                                Maybe the wording should be
                                                "... SHOULD support edit

                                                mode if it allows
                                                personalization".
                                                    Yossi.
                                                      -----Original
                                                      Message-----
                                                      From: Gil Tayar
[mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
                                                      Sent: Sunday,
                                                      December 01, 2002
                                                      1:13 PM
                                                      To:
wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                                                      Subject: [wsrp-wsia]
                                                      [I#164] An entity
                                                      SHOULD support help,
                                                      and CAN support edit
                                                      Issue: 164
                                                      Status: Active
                                                      Topic: interface
                                                      Class:
                                                      Minor_Technical
                                                      Raised by: Gil Tayar
                                                      Title: An entity
                                                      SHOULD support help,
                                                      and CAN support edit
                                                      Date Added:
                                                      1-Dec-2002
                                                      Document Section:
                                                      v0.85/5.10
                                                      Description:
                                                      In v0.85, an entity
                                                      SHOULD support both
                                                      edit and help. I
                                                      think SHOULD for edit
                                                      is too strong a
                                                      recommendation, as it
                                                      puts a fantastic
                                                      burden on the
                                                      portlets. As Help is
                                                      very simple to
                                                      implement, I think

                                                      the wording should be
                                                      changed to: "an
                                                      entity SHOULD support
                                                      help, and CAN support
                                                      edit".
                                                      Gil Tayar
                                                      WebCollage



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