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Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] Proposed Resolution: An entity MAY supporthelp and edit modes







Those actively discussing this issue appear to have arrived at a consensus
to change the verbiage regarding optional mode and window state support
from "SHOULD" to "MAY".

Rich Thompson


                                                                       
                      Carsten Leue                                     
                      <CLEUE@de.ibm.com        To:       Eilon Reshef <eilon.reshef@webcollage.com>
                      >                        cc:       wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                                               Subject:  RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,
                      12/05/2002 03:51          and CAN su     pport edit
                      AM                                               
                                                                       
                                                                       




I think that the porlet developer should be free to implement any mode
he/she wants, do only the VIEW mode should be mandatory, all other modes
and states optional (so I prefer the MAY statement).


Best regards
Carsten Leue

-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401




             Eilon Reshef
             <eilon.reshef@web
             collage.com>                                               To
                                       wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
             12/05/2002 06:20                                           cc
             AM
                                                                   Subject
                                       RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity
                                       SHOULD support help, and CAN su
                                       pport edit










And not to beat a dead horse (my favorite activity), RFC2119 also says:

6. Guidance in the use of these Imperatives

   Imperatives of the type defined in this memo must be used with care
   and sparingly.  In particular, they MUST only be used where it is
   actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has
   potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions)  For
   example, they must not be used to try to impose a particular method
   on implementors where the method is not required for
   interoperability.
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Gil Tayar [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
      Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 1:50 PM
      To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
      Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and
      CAN su pport edit



      Echoing Eilon's reasoning, is that I would rather let the market
      decide
      whether this is a SHOULD or a MAY, and not the WSRP committee. If the
      market
      decides it's a SHOULD (i.e. most Consumers will need it, and
      therefore most
      portlets will code it), then maybe in one of the following versions
      we need
      to rethink the "MAY" decision. If the market decided _against_ it,
      then we
      would be glad that we decided to stick by "MAY".


      I definitely agree with you on the "help"...


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
      Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 19:41
      To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
      Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and
      CAN su
      pport edit










      Yes ... that is why I said I could be talked into MAY (probably said
      CAN at
      the time, but it actually is MAY). On a slightly less abstract level,
      there
      are many places where we encourage a behaviour essentially in order
      to
      provide more uniform user experiences. That is the essense of why I
      favor
      SHOULD ...


      By the way, whichever way we decide this should also be applied to
      help,
      minimized and maximized .... same logic will apply.


      Rich Thompson





                            "Eilon Reshef"


                            <eilon.reshef@webc        To:       Rich
      Thompson/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
                            ollage.com>               cc:
      <wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>
                                                      Subject:  RE:
      [wsrp-wsia]
      [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,
                            12/04/2002 12:29           and CAN su     pport
      edit


                            PM







      Rich,


      The challenge I'm having regarding this SHOULD/MAY decision is that
      typically MUST/SHOULD/MAY refer to a compliant implementation. I
      agree that
      a compliant implementation of a portlet SDK SHOULD allow developers
      to
      create EDIT mode.


      However, the situation we're facing in this area (as well as in other
      areas
      in the spec), is that we end up putting constraints on the portlet
      developer. That is, the portlet developer may have perfectly valid
      reasons
      for not using EDIT mode (without "understanding the full
      implications").
      Examples that were brought up include lack of need for
      personalization, but
      also simple benefit versus cost considerations (e.g., if only 2% of
      my users
      configure my portlet, would I spend 20% more development time on this

      feature or would I rather focus on adding more appealing
      functionality to
      the portlet?).


      Another way to look at it is that technology-wise, implementing EDIT
      mode is
      completely optional (MAY). Business-wise, we are trying to drive more
      people
      do develop EDIT mode, and hence we want to influence them to spend
      this
      extra effort by suggesting it's important.


      I believe the spec should focus on the technology. That, WSRP-wise, a

      portlet developer MAY (or may not :-) develop EDIT mode. I.e.,
      Consumers
      "MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which
      does not
      include the (EDIT) option". Although we may want to encourage
      developers to
      put EDIT mode, that's a business decision and IMHO me should let our
      respective companies' marketing department take care of that part of
      the
      education.


      Eilon







      -----Original Message-----
      From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
      Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 7:53 AM
      To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
      Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and
      CAN su
      pport edit


      RFC2119 defines SHOULD as:
               "This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
         may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
         particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
         carefully weighed before choosing a different course."
      while MAY is defined as:
              "This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is

         truly optional.  One vendor may choose to include the item because
      a
         particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels
      that
         it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same
      item.
         An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST
      be
         prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does
         include the option, though perhaps with reduced functionality. In
      the


         same vein an implementation which does include a particular option

         MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which

         does not include the option (except, of course, for the feature
      the
         option provides.)"





      My argument in favor of SHOULD is that those cases where it makes
      sense to
      not implement edit mode need to be carefully thought through.
      Limitations on
      deployment and ability of the user to personalize the entity need to
      be
      understood before making this choice. The choice is still available,
      just
      not completely up to the whim of the developer. Rich Thompson







                            Gil Tayar


                            <Gil.Tayar@webcol        To:
      wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                            lage.com>                cc:


                                                     Subject:  RE:
      [wsrp-wsia]
      [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,
                            12/03/2002 11:58          and CAN su     pport
      edit
                            PM











      Rich,
      I totally agree on the must, and the new issues you raised clinch it
      for


      me.
      On the CAN issue, we must not forget that WSIA is in this too. A
      SHOULD
      requirement for every portlet to implement state change is a bit
      heavy on
      the Producer who just doesn't need that capability. To use your
      argument
      -
      entities with a planned deployment to Consumers who manage their own
      personalization UI would not need to do this, but nevertheless, the
      spec


      recommends them to do so.
      Gil
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
      Sent: Tue, December 03, 2002 15:54
      To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
      Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and
      CAN su
      pport edit










      At the Sept F2F in Germany we explicitly made state change
      independent of
      mode. Another reason that edit mode can not become a MUST is that we
      decided
      Consumer generated UIs for personalization had to be supported by the
      spec.
      Entities with a planned deployment to only such an environment


      should not be required to implement their own UI as well.
      I could be talked into dropping this level to a CAN, but would
      resist. While
      I will argue it can not be required, I also think entity developers
      should
      think carefully and develop significant reasons before deciding not
      to
      implement edit mode. This is exactly the meaning of SHOULD. Dropping
      it to
      CAN would make it totally optional ... I think good reasons are
      needed when
      choosing not to implement edit mode (and that they are possible).
      Rich
      Thompson Interaction Middleware and Standards for Portal Server IBM
      T.J.
      Watson Research Center Yorktown Heights, NY
      (914) 945-3225
      richt2@us.ibm.com









                            "Tamari, Yossi"
                            <yossi.tamari@sap        To:
      wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                            .com>                    cc:
                                                     Subject:  RE:
      [wsrp-wsia]


      [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,
                            12/02/2002 01:39          and CAN su     pport
      edit
                            PM











      Hi Gil,
      I probably don't understand your question, but the entityStateChange
      is
      already in InteractionParams, and I think one of the reasons for this
      was
      specifically this use case. If my memory serves me well, Sasha raised
      this
      in the F2F in Germany. Where do you see the problem?
          Yossi.
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Gil Tayar [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
            Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 8:34 PM
            To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
            Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,
      and
            CAN su pport edit
            Ouch! So the entityStateChange is relevant for view mode too?
      The
            Consumer can't assume that state change won't occur in view
      mode?
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Tamari, Yossi [mailto:yossi.tamari@sap.com]
                  Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002 20:30
                  To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                  Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support
      help,
                  and CAN su pport edit
                  Hi,
                  For 1, my answer is that an entity may support
      personalization
                  through its view mode (for example by simply remembering
      the


                  last values a user entered in a text input).
                      Yossi.
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC
                        [mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL]
                        Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 6:59 PM
                        To: 'Gil Tayar'; wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                        Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD
      support
                        help, and CAN su pport edit
                        Hello,
                        FWIW. I guess that the questions are:
                        1. Are we allowing personalization for an entity
      that
                        doesn't support the Edit mode (if so, how)?
                        2. Are there other reasons, not personalization,
      for
                        supporting an Edit mode?
                        Take care.
                        Joe





                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Gil Tayar [
      mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
                              Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 11:58 AM
                              To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                              Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity
      SHOULD
                              support help, and CAN su pport edit
                              Let's go that route -
                              Edit mode is defined (5.10.2) as "[providing]

                              content and logic that let a user customize
      the
                              behavior of the entity". Let's define
                              personalization as "enabling the user to
      customize
                              the behavior of the entity".
                              Thus, the sentence "the entity MUST support
      edit


                              mode if it allows personalization" becomes
      "the
                              entity MUST support content and logic that
      let a


                              user customize the behavior of the entity if
      it
                              enables the user to customize the behavior of
      the
                              entity".
                              The expanded sentence above is almost a
      tautology,
                              except for the fact that entities may enable
                              customization of their behaviors out-of-band.
      Thus,
                              an entity that enables the user to customize
      the


                              behavior of the entity out-of-band may want
      NOT to
                              support WSRP content and logic that does the
      same
                              (i.e. edit mode), for various reasons.
                              So, given the above precise definitions, I
      still


                              think this is a SHOULD.
                              Gil
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC
                                    [mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL]
                                    Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002 18:35
                                    To: 'Gil Tayar';
                                    wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                                    Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An
      entity


                                    SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport
      edit


                                    Hello,
                                    It would seem that we have to describe
      what
                                    the edit mode is for (personalization?)
      in


                                    unambiguous terms somewhere. Sometimes,
      I am
                                    a bit afraid that we are using a lot of

                                    "SHOULDS" to cover uncertainty and
      ambiguity
                                    when it is up to us to know (or at
      least act
                                    like we know) the right answer.
                                    Thoughts?
                                    Take care.
                                    Joe Rudnicki
                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Gil Tayar
                                          [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]

                                          Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002
      11:09
                                          AM
                                          To:
      wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                                          Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164]
      An
                                          entity SHOULD support help, and
      CAN su
                                          pport edit
                                          A MUST of this sort would need to

                                          really describe what
      "personalization"
                                          is, and I wouldn't want to go to
      that
                                          route! With a SHOULD, I think we
      can go
                                          with a vague definition of
                                          "personalization".
                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Rudnicki Joseph G
      CONT NSSC
      [mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL]
                                                Sent: Mon, December 02,
      2002
                                                17:55
                                                To: 'Tamari, Yossi';

      wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org


                                                Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia]
      [I#164]
                                                An entity SHOULD support
      help,


                                                and CAN su pport edit
                                                Hello,
                                                Perhaps, "...MUST support
      edit


                                                mode if it allows
                                                personalization?"
                                                Take care.
                                                Joe





                                                      -----Original
      Message-----
                                                      From: Tamari, Yossi
      [mailto:yossi.tamari@sap.com]
                                                      Sent: Sunday,
      December 01,
                                                      2002 1:18 PM
                                                      To:
      wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                                                      Subject: RE:
      [wsrp-wsia]


                                                      [I#164] An entity
      SHOULD


                                                      support help, and CAN
      su


                                                      pport edit
                                                      I second this. Many
                                                      entities simply do
      not have
                                                      (need) an edit mode.
      A "Top
                                                      business news"
      portlet may
                                                      not be
      personalizable.
                                                      Maybe the wording
      should be
                                                      "... SHOULD support
      edit


                                                      mode if it allows
                                                      personalization".
                                                          Yossi.
                                                            -----Original
                                                            Message-----
                                                            From: Gil Tayar

      [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
                                                            Sent: Sunday,
                                                            December 01,
      2002
                                                            1:13 PM
                                                            To:
      wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                                                            Subject:
      [wsrp-wsia]
                                                            [I#164] An
      entity
                                                            SHOULD support
      help,
                                                            and CAN support
      edit
                                                            Issue: 164
                                                            Status: Active
                                                            Topic:
      interface
                                                            Class:
                                                            Minor_Technical

                                                            Raised by: Gil
      Tayar
                                                            Title: An
      entity
                                                            SHOULD support
      help,
                                                            and CAN support
      edit
                                                            Date Added:
                                                            1-Dec-2002
                                                            Document
      Section:
                                                            v0.85/5.10
                                                            Description:
                                                            In v0.85, an
      entity
                                                            SHOULD support
      both
                                                            edit and help.
      I
                                                            think SHOULD
      for edit
                                                            is too strong a

                                                            recommendation,
      as it
                                                            puts a
      fantastic
                                                            burden on the
                                                            portlets. As
      Help is
                                                            very simple to
                                                            implement, I
      think


                                                            the wording
      should be
                                                            changed to: "an

                                                            entity SHOULD
      support
                                                            help, and CAN
      support
                                                            edit".
                                                            Gil Tayar
                                                            WebCollage






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