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Subject: RE: [wsrp][markup] XHTML Considerations (was: First conference ca ll(Summary))

That's right - while most likely the same tags would be allowed/forbidden
for XHTML and HTML, nevertheless HTML conceptually must be treated as a
markup that is different from XHTML. While a consumer who just aggregates
markup could work with either HTML / XHTML, consumers that *really* expect
XHTML and expect to be able to transcode the markup e.g. using XML
transformations could not accept HTML.

You have a very goof point with VoiceXML - this is probably the mist
difficult one. It may by the way be an example where it is beneficial to
allow portlets to provide "begin page" markup with the grammar information
and then the actual VoiceXML markup in a main part.

We have done some work with VoiceXML and portals. What we did so far is
using menus with a menu-grammar and using the menues to navigate to voice
portlets that then have their own grammer plus something like "back" or
"cancel". This way, it was not really necessary to merge the grammars of
different portals, just portlet grammers of single portlets with some
portal navigation verbs (back, home, ...) .

An example is this:

Grammar generated by the *portal's aggregation* code (just an example
without VoiceXML syntax): "Stocks" (DTMF 1), "Weather" (DTMF 2), "Sports"
(DTMF 3)

Voice Output generated by aggregation/portlets: *1 Stocks* xyz 90 abc 80 *2
Weather* New York 30' *3 Sports* 1. FC Bayern wins again !!! ...

Grammar generated by the *portlet's* code (just an example without VoiceXML
syntax): "New York" (DTMF 1) "Bejing" (DTMF 2) "Rome" (DTMF 3) plus
"Back"(DTMF 4) generated by the *portal's* code

Voice Output generated by portlet:  *1 New York*, sunny *2 Bejing*,
raining, *3 Rome*, sunny, *4 Back*

Best regards,


"PAVLIK,GREGORY (HP-NewJersey,ex2)" <gregory_pavlik@hp.com> on 04/10/2002
07:16:59 PM

Please respond to "PAVLIK,GREGORY (HP-NewJersey,ex2)"

To:    "'Gino Filicetti'" <gfilicetti@bowstreet.com>, "'Eilon Reshef'"
       <eilon.reshef@webcollage.com>, "PAVLIK,GREGORY (HP-NewJersey,ex2)"
       <gregory_pavlik@hp.com>, Thomas Schaeck/Germany/IBM@IBMDE, "'Takao
       Mohri'" <mohri.takao@jp.fujitsu.com>
cc:    "'WSRP Mailing List (E-mail)'" <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>
Subject:    RE: [wsrp][markup] XHTML Considerations (was: First conference
       ca    ll (Summary))

We should be very careful not to attempt to treat XHTML  and HTML
interchangeably. If the aggregation component (intermediary agent)  expects
an XML language, HTML fragments without body tags won't work in many  cases
(ie, missing alt tags in an img element won't validate). even assuming the
document is well formed. VoiceXML is an interesting example. It won't
support  well the concept of fragments and we'll need rules for how to
"aggregate"  grammars, for example, that are independent of restrictions on
the markup  language itself.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gino Filicetti  [mailto:gfilicetti@bowstreet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002  12:06 PM
To: 'Eilon Reshef'; 'PAVLIK,GREGORY (HP-NewJersey,ex2)';  'Thomas Schaeck';
'Takao Mohri'
Cc: 'WSRP Mailing List  (E-mail)'
Subject: RE: [wsrp][markup] XHTML Considerations (was: First  conference ca
ll (Summary))

I  believe the point Thomas was making when he stated that there is no
"markup  language of WSRP" is that we need to only concern ourselves with
determining the  list of acceptable (or unacceptable) markup tags in each
of the markup languages  we plan to support.....

Since  XHTML is a superset/clean version of HTML, by stating that a <BODY>
tag is unacceptable in your markup fragment in XHTML it implies the same in

Therefore, I think we can get away with one list of  unacceptable tags that
applies to both XHTML and HTML....

-----Original Message-----
From: Eilon Reshef  [mailto:eilon.reshef@webcollage.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002  11:58 AM
To: 'PAVLIK,GREGORY (HP-NewJersey,ex2)'; 'Thomas Schaeck';  'Takao Mohri'
Cc: 'WSRP Mailing List (E-mail)'
Subject:  RE: [wsrp][markup] First conference call (Summary)

I do believe we have to offer a migration path for  people that have or
even prefer plain old HTML - expecting everybody to go  back to their Perl
scripts and JSP templates and rework them might provide a  barrier to entry
that we can avoid by simply supporting  HTML.
-----Original Message-----
From: PAVLIK,GREGORY  (HP-NewJersey,ex2) [mailto:gregory_pavlik@hp.com]
Sent:  Wednesday, April 10, 2002 11:48 AM
To: 'Thomas Schaeck'; Takao  Mohri
Cc: PAVLIK,GREGORY (HP-NewJersey,ex2); WSRP Mailing List  (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [wsrp][markup] First conference call  (Summary)

Is there a general statement on whether the markup  subcommittee intends to
treat HTML and XHTML  interchangeably? My initial thought was that WSRP
do better to standardize on XHTML, which would have a number of  advantages
including the ability of the consumer to  treat the fragment as an XML
fragment. It's not  terribly difficult to tidy up a piece of HTML and
repurpose it as well-formed/valid XHTML when dealing with legacy  content.
early focus on XHTML might position us  better for dealing with devices in
the long run, as  it appears that WML and cHTML are going to be secondary
targets for the TC.


-----Original Message-----
From:  Thomas Schaeck [mailto:SCHAECK@de.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 5:43 PM
To: Takao Mohri
Cc: PAVLIK,GREGORY  (HP-NewJersey,ex2); WSRP Mailing List (E-mail)
Subject: Re: [wsrp][markup] First conference call (Summary)

There is not something like "the markup language of WSRP",  the WSRP
protocol needs not to be tied to any  particular markup language, the
protocol and the  markup exchanged can be viewed as orthogonal.

However, WSRP will need to define rules for valid markup  fragments and
common styles with the  priorities
1. (X)HTML
2.  WML, cHTML, VoiceXML...

It would be interesting to see the rules that would define  valid XHTML
Basic fragments.

Takao, could you post an XHTML Basic example document to the  mailing list
and an outline of fragment rules for  XHTML Basic ? Which tags would be
allowed in  aggregatable XHTML Basic fragments and which tags would not be
allowed to use in fragments ?

Best regards,


Takao Mohri <mohri.takao@jp.fujitsu.com> on 04/09/2002  01:26:58 PM

Please respond to Takao Mohri  <mohri.takao@jp.fujitsu.com>

To:    "PAVLIK,GREGORY (HP-NewJersey,ex2)"  <gregory_pavlik@hp.com>
cc:     "WSRP Mailing List (E-mail)" <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>
Subject:    Re: [wsrp][markup] First  conference call (Summary)


Yes, as you mentioned, XHTML Basic is becoming a standard  for cellular
In WAP  2.0, XHTML Mobile Profile (an extention of XHTML Basic) is a
standard markup language. In Japan, cellular phones that  support WAP 2.0
are already on sale by KDDI. NTT  Docomo also has announced support of WAP
In the near future, WAP 2.0, i.e, XTHML Basic will be used  by many mobile

If the markup language of WSRP is based on XHTML  Basic,
it makes support of mobile devices much  easier.


"PAVLIK,GREGORY (HP-NewJersey,ex2)" wrote:
> Gino,
> Could you clarify if your intent is  to consider XHMTL/XHTML Basic as a
> of the HTML focus? This wasn't clear from the notes.  There appears to be
>  broad convergence in the mobile space, both with respect to WML and  NTT
> Docomo, to standardizing on XHTML Basic +  CSS. XHTML is going to be here
> the device very soon, perhaps quicker than on the desktop,  making this a
> relatively high priority item.  Fujitsu may have some comments on this as
>  well.
> Greg
> -----Original  Message-----
> From: Gino Filicetti [mailto:gfilicetti@bowstreet.com]
> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 3:22 PM
> To: WSRP Mailing List (E-mail)
>  Subject: [wsrp][markup] First conference call (Summary)
> Team,
> Attached are the meeting notes from  today's Markup Subcommittee meeting.
> Comments  and suggestions are welcome.
> One thing I did notice was that there were quite a few  participants
> that aren't on the actual  list of official members for this team. Since
> team is quite small, I think it'd  be great if we could get some of you
>  officially join and help out with the effort. Unfortunately, I wasn't
> to capture the names of  ALL the attendees this time around (I'll be sure
> record the con-call next time), but  please send me an email so we can
> your name  to official list and flesh out the team a little more.
> Currently, the official list  is:
> Gino  Filicetti
> David Taieb
> Khurram Mahmood
> Susan Levine
> Michael Hillerman
> Thanks,
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Gino Filicetti | Software Engineer
>  One Harbour Place, Portsmouth, NH 03801
> T  603.559.1692 | gfilicetti@bowstreet.com
> w w w .  b o w s t r e e t . c o m
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------
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// Takao MOHRI (mohri.takao@jp.fujitsu.com)

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