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Subject: RE: [wsrp][interfaces]: Portal Usage Scenario



Gil - I checked your checkboxes as an answer.


Best regards
Carsten Leue

-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401



|---------+---------------------------->
|         |           Gil Tayar        |
|         |           <Gil.Tayar@webcol|
|         |           lage.com>        |
|         |                            |
|         |           04/14/2002 08:10 |
|         |           AM               |
|         |           Please respond to|
|         |           Gil Tayar        |
|         |                            |
|---------+---------------------------->
  >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
  |                                                                                                                                             |
  |       To:       "'Sasha Aickin'" <AlexanderA@plumtree.com>, Michael Freedman <Michael.Freedman@oracle.com>                                  |
  |       cc:       wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org                                                                                                   |
  |       Subject:  RE: [wsrp][interfaces]: Portal Usage Scenario                                                                               |
  |                                                                                                                                             |
  |                                                                                                                                             |
  >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|



Mike,
The definition for portlet instance as a "a portlet in the portal layout
structure" is still confusing. Let me ask a question which will maybe make
things clearer between us - if no user is seeing a portal page, does a
portlet instance exist?

If the answer is yes, then a portlet instance is not (only?) a runtime
manifestation. Moreover, we do not have a name for the runtime
manifestation, and I feel we should.
If the answer is no, then what is the word for the design time
manifestation? Is it the "portlet template"?

My feeling is that there should be concensus on the answer to this
question, so that we will be on common ground on this very important term -
portlet instance.

So, let me re-ask the question (and I would really appreciate if all WSRP
members could answer), and make them more answerable :
1. If no user is seeing no portal page at a certain point in time, does a
portlet instance exist at that time?
Answers:
(x) Yes
( ) No
( ) Other:
____________________________________________________________________
2. If a user is seeing a portal page at a certain point in time, is it the
portlet instance which is rendering the portlet?
Answers:
(x) Yes
( ) No
( ) Other:
____________________________________________________________________

Cheers,
Gil
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Sasha Aickin [mailto:AlexanderA@plumtree.com]
      Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 07:10
      To: Michael Freedman; Gil Tayar
      Cc: wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
      Subject: RE: [wsrp][interfaces]: Portal Usage Scenario

      Mike,

      I'd like to offer a slight clarification, if I could:  I think that
      WSRP/portlets care about a clone only if the service maintains its
      personalization data AND the portlet service has to maintain
      information about each portlet instance on each page.  I feel like,
      as I think Yossi said earlier, that the portal could implement clone
      by simply including the same instance on two pages.  That way, WSRP
      would not need to know about cloning even if the portlet service
      maintained personalization data.

      Cheers,
      Sasha.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Michael Freedman [mailto:Michael.Freedman@oracle.com]
            Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:24 PM
            To: Gil Tayar
            Cc: wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
            Subject: Re: [wsrp][interfaces]: Portal Usage Scenario

            I believe that is how we have defined things:
                portlet instance: a portlet on a page; or more generically
            a portlet in the portal layout structure.  From a portal's
            perspective, the portlet instance is the  realization of the
            portlet in the runtime layout structure.  A portlet instance is
            derived from a portlet template.  e.g. when adding a portlet to
            a page, the  user chooses a portlet template (from the
            toolbox).  The template is used to "type" the instance being
            created.


               personalization data: a set of customized data settings for
            a portlet instance. There is an 1 to N relationship between
            personalization data and portlet instances.  1 set of
            personalizations may be shared between multiple instances.


            What is/was a little confusing was Yossi statement that "the
            same portlet instance appears in different places in the portal
            structure".  That is not what I had indicated in my reply to
            him -- rather I said was "personalization [data] can be shared
            between multiple portlet instances of the same type."  I.e.
            portlet instances ARE your runtime manifestations on a page.
            There is a special case where two of these happen to share the
            same personalization data.  This tends to come into existence
            via some kind of clone operation.  WSRP/portlets care about
            this in the situation the service maintains its personalization
            data.


            I hope this helps.
                 -Mike-


            Gil Tayar wrote:
                   I second #1, as I outlined in my previous email. I
                  submit that what is confusing is the term "portlet
                  instance". I would prefer "portlet instance data" or
                  "portlet customization data" and leave "portlet instance"
                  to the runtime manifestation on the page, e.g. only when
                  the user views it.
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Tamari, Yossi [
                        mailto:yossi.tamari@sapportals.com]
                        Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:28
                        To: wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
                        Subject: RE: [wsrp][interfaces]: Portal Usage
                        Scenario



                        Thanks for the answers, but I'm still not satisfied
                        on 1 and 2...1. What bothers me here is that the
                        fact the same portlet instance appears in different
                        places in the portal structure is completely
                        handled by the portal. The producer does not
                        know/care where this instance is in the portal
                        pages. Hence while the feature is logical in the
                        portal framework, I don't see its relevance to
                        WSRP.2. I see your point, I'm just worried about
                        performance. We should give this some more thought.
                        Maybe the metadata could either give a URL\title or
                        say that it is dynamic.    Yossi.
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Michael Freedman [
                              mailto:Michael.Freedman@oracle.com]
                              Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 12:06 AM
                              To: Tamari, Yossi
                              Cc: wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
                              Subject: Re: [wsrp][interfaces]: Portal Usage
                              Scenario

                              Good questions.


                              1. What I meant when I said that
                              personalization data can be shared between
                              multiple instances is that the
                              personalization can be shared between
                              multiple portlet instances of the same type.
                              For example I can have two instances of a
                              Stock portlet that share the same
                              personalization data.  In this case both
                              instances display the same result.  When
                              either is customized, the changes are
                              reflected in both as the personalization data
                              is shared.  This generalization allows a
                              consumer to expose the same portlet (result)
                              from different levels in its structure.
                              Remember, a portlet instance is defined as a
                              particular reference in the structure
                              (portlet on a page).  If you want the same
                              content in two locations in the structure you
                              need the function defined here.  One use of
                              this is in a portal that supports access from
                              multiple devices.  One can envision the need
                              to allow portal designers/users to maintain
                              different portal structures between the
                              device (types).  However, in such a world the
                              end user still wants access to the same
                              content.  Cloning is an operation that can be
                              used create a second portlet instance with
                              the characteristics that its personalization
                              data is shared.  So a cloned instance is one
                              that has the characteristics described above.


                              2.   Yes, requesting a portlet instance to
                              render a link reference to itself does mean
                              you ask the portlet to render an URL that
                              returns its content as markup.  I agree that
                              this operation can often be defined by
                              meta-data.  However it may not always be
                              static.  In both this case and the case we
                              need to render a title bar for the portlet we
                              must allow a way for the portal (consumer) to
                              acquire the portlet's (producers) title.
                              This is because the title is commonly
                              personalizable -- hence dynamic.  Further
                              discussions will resolve whether this occurs
                              during a render operation (get "Link") or is
                              merely a getTitle API that returns a string.
                              Done in the former the portlet gets an
                              opportunity to define/override the standard
                              getContent URL -- hence I included it in the
                              list.


                              3.  Whether changes to a portlet template's
                              settings should affect existing instances is
                              a good question.  We should discuss this in
                              the next phase.  I will add it to the
                              questions list in this area.  I will also
                              remove the statement from the document (so it
                              can be added once answered).  I agree there
                              are basic configuration settings that should
                              be propagated.  An example would be a news
                              feed portlet that requires the URL of the
                              source be entered to wire the portlet to a
                              particular news feed.  If this URL changes
                              there needs to be a way for the update to
                              alter existing instances.  On the flip side,
                              one can also envision some template settings
                              being the initial personalization for an end
                              user.  Its not as clear if these values
                              should be propogated particularly if there is
                              support for > 1 level of personalization in
                              the instance.


                              Hope this helps.
                                  -Mike-


                              "Tamari, Yossi" wrote:
                                    Hi Mike,I need some clarifications:1.
                                    personalization data - What does it
                                    mean that it can be shared between
                                    multiple instances? do you mean
                                    instances of the same portlet? if so,
                                    why is that a different instances, i.e.
                                    why should the consumer request the
                                    exact same data twice? And how is that
                                    different from a cloned instance?2.
                                    "You can request a portlet instance
                                    render a link reference to itself" -
                                    Does that mean you ask the portlet for
                                    a URL that returns its content as
                                    markup? I think this should be part of
                                    the meta-data, as it does not need to
                                    be truly dynamic.3. Why should changes
                                    to the portlet template's settings not
                                    affect existing instances? If the name
                                    of my company was change, I want the
                                    new name rendered in ALL the instances.
                                    Yossi.
                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Michael Freedman [
                                          mailto:Michael.Freedman@oracle.com
                                          ]
                                          Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002
                                          9:53 PM
                                          To: WSRP
                                          Subject: [wsrp][interfaces]:
                                          Portal Usage Scenario


                                          I have attached a short document
                                          describing a portal's possible
                                          usage pattern for portlets using
                                          the terms we discussed last week.
                                          Please comment/annotate with new
                                          operations or suggested
                                          operations to remove.  Please
                                          don't annotate with questions
                                          intended to clarify the behavior
                                          of the operation, send these
                                          separately. The goal for this
                                          Thursday's meeting is to see if
                                          we can agree on a preliminary
                                          usage pattern and collection of
                                          operations. Hopefully we can then
                                          move into enumerating the
                                          questions we need to answer.  In
                                          our discussion on Thursday, I
                                          expect we will need to classify
                                          at least the operational aspects
                                          of the usage scenario along two
                                          axes:


                                          Axis 1:  Is this a valid Portal
                                          operation?
                                                Yes, we all agree this a
                                                valid operation
                                                No, we all agree this is
                                                not a valid operation
                                                Maybe, there is debate
                                                whether this is a valid
                                                operation.
                                                Don't know, we need more
                                                information and discussion
                                                to understand the operation
                                                before classifying it.



                                          Axis 2: Should this operation be
                                          covered/enabled by our spec?
                                                Yes, we all agree.
                                                Yes, but it should be
                                                addressed in a later
                                                revision.
                                                No, we all agree.
                                                Maybe, there is debate
                                                whether we should address
                                                this.
                                                Don't know, we need more
                                                information to decide.
                                          It might be useful if each of you
                                          did your own classification
                                          (assuming of course the usage
                                          scenario isn't grossly
                                          controversial).


                                              -Mike-








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