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Subject: [wsrp][interfaces] 4/11 Concall summary
The agenda for this meeting was to make a pass through the portal usage document written during the prior week and discuss which operations described in the usage should be the focus of our [future] discussion. This is a short summary of what we decided. More detailed notes are appended thanks to Susan Levine. 1) Decided to refer to the Bind operation as Register 2) Decided that portlet templates will likely need to be addressed in the initial specification but that it isn't a basic concept. Hence will lower its priority to address after the core is covered. 3) In the portlet template's section we decided to: add an operation for rendering the settings screen, and that you can get the settings from the service. 4) We decided to defer the "migration" operations to a future revision of the specification and for now allow vendor specific solutions. 5) We clarified the statement "You can upgrade a portlet template to a new version." by adding the following wordings: "You can upgrade a portlet template to a new version of the portlet service". We also moved this operation into the "upgrade state". 6) We decided that cloning is a second order priority that can/should be addressed once the core is in good shape. 7) We decided that converting a portlet instance into a portlet template was an operation for future specification. 8) Clarified the portlet instance render operations to be portal-centric. For example, rather then saying "You can request a portlet instance render its portlet content", we now say "Portal renders portlet content". 9) We clarified that the number/types of renditions/screens is not defined by the specification. I.e. it is open. 10) We added a get personalization data operation to the portlet instance. 11) We renamed offline/online to disable/enable for clarity. 12) We asked that more discussion/detail be given to "actions" and "events" before deciding if they belong in our initial specification. 13) We deferred until the next meeting (because time ran out) discussing operations relating to enabling/disabling a service and upgrading a service. 14) All other operations are to be discussed/included in the specification. Next steps: I am putting together a questions document to help frame the discussions that need to occur to get us to the point of defining specific operational requirements. -Mike-
--- Begin Message ---
- From: susan_levine@peoplesoft.com
- To: Michael.Freedman@oracle.com
- Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 09:11:10 -0700
Mike: Any questions or comments on agenda for today? (none) What I propsed to do was to go through the list of operations, guage the level of interest in including those operations in scope of the work that we're doing. Proposed answer 2 questions about the operation (as in agenda). Let the debate begin. First operation: binding a portlet service, broken down into acquiring portlet metadata, 2nd is the actual bind operation. Member: should we specify a method? Mike: let's defer those types of questions, just want to identify set of operaitons we should focus on that we should begin debating and answering. Let's avoid any real discussion on how that operation would be expressed. Member: okay - with operation you don't mean soap op or cal, just the logical op Mike: logical op which we are ultimately going to have to specify something in the spec. The next step after this is capturing a bunch of questions to frame the debate on each one of these operations, I'll be sending that out tomorrow for all ops we agreed we need to be discussion. Then we'll start via email debating those things and next week we'll pick up from there. Okay, moving on, questions or debate about acquiring metadata? Okay, how about next op, which is binding portlet service to a portal. And I broke the op down into a couple of pieces of function, 1) establishing portal identity to portlet, 2) trust relationship 3), negotiating behavior configuration between the two. There's beena number of discussions that teh result is the portal and portlet will have to negotiate on how th eportlet will run in that portal, ie., where teh pers data is stored. So jsut at a hight level is there any debate about focusing on a bind op? Member: This gets confusing against the bind in step 0, Mike: how about register? Member: works for me, okay Member: avoiding confusion is important Member: I have a confusion about registrer, versus create portal instances Sasha: register is the op that a portal does to a portlet where it establishes identity, trust, etc., wehre create portlet template instance may be an op that hte portal does after registration in order to represent a design component fro its design community to develop portals with. Thomas: is it necessary for wsrp to have design component? Mike: No we haven't decided that, just need to clarify diff between the two. Member: needs to be a diff name for this after you reg but before you create a portlet template instance Member: do you see an interaction btwn the portal and the portlet in that state? Member: yes, I think Member: can you describe it? Member: something that's reg int he portal at that point you can create tmpleat instance, there is something in the portal that it knows about Member: so you'd like to identify that particular state as a discrete state, not that that state is itself an operation Member: yeah, in the same way that having a portlet template instance is a state that you call allow people to put instance on their pages. There is something there Mem: could call it a registered portlet service Thomas: more a registered service than a registered portlet, has to do with service and portal, do reg just once for multiple portlet Sasha: yeah, I think that's a great term Mike: yeah and the op that occurs at that point is create portlet template instance, pontentially. I will update states to include that term. Is there any disc or debate about register, the need for that operation, etc.? Mem: what do those mean? Mike: establish trust - ongoing disc in security group, point in time in which portal and portlet agree on how further comunication will be done i a trusted environ and how the id of the portal will be transferred durign comunication so the portlet can run at level of trust that it will run at. Sasha: as long as its a potential op that's fine with me Mike: there's no req that the portlet cares about any of these things Sasha: things need to be reg before you create a template... what do you mean by negotiate behavior? Mike: various discussions seem to imply that the portlet will in its metadata signify ways in which it can or prefers to be managed, and the portal may need to negotiate amongst the diff possiiblities of how to manage it, there may need to be some communication where htey agree on how it runs and behaves in that particular portal. One example is where personaliation data is stored. One poss negotiation, portlet's metadata prefers that pers data is stored in portal, and negotiation is portal ack that it's going to occur or saying it can't satisfy that request. Mike: okay moving on to next op, create portlet template instance. I think there will be debate here, Carsen? Carsen: I like template as design entity, put it into toolbox, can be configurable, put it onto a page, ubt I'm not sure it's necessary to define in base WSRP interface, could add on top as secondary interface on top of WSRP basic interface as simple as possible., for just data xfer, markup xfer, not necesary to have this instance, it's a nice-to-have, more than raw concept. My concern is adding to base interface makes it too complicated, if a service would just like to expose markup, be difficult to support the interface. <?>: if only way to create instance is from a template then difficulties come into play. If not the only way then you could have portlet services that allow instances to be created directly. Carsen: okya I would like that to be able to create an instance directly, by giving id, service creates preconfigured instance of hte portal. On top of this you could have ID taht represents the template, to create instance you'd pass handle of template to create the method....??? Mike: and the q I have for you Carson, is I understand layering approach, it's not clear if you think whether we went for layering approach if you think we should deal with anything other than lowest layer in the first rev of the spec - should we defer it until we get the lowest layer defined. Carson: my opinion, take the concept into account, not deal with it in the first Jeff: I concur, focus on lowest common denominator, make it as simple as possible so we can achieve success, then evolve over time into more complex situations. Carson: exactly - should leave it open, concentrate on teh basics Mike: I think we'll have to for a number of ops we defer to ta later release we'll have to define the extensibility mech in the API so that vendors who need to provide such ops it's well defined how they can do that and layer on top of work that we've done. SAsha: we will definitley need this functionality, we're going to end up putting it in in our own way Mike: yeah, we can talk about this, see if you could sway the folks that want to keep it simpler Sasha: all of our most important portlets do not work well without a design time entity that people could modify Alan: I agree with Sasha, coming as a portal maker ourselves, most of our portlets or modules need to e configurable for all users, seems like the template state seems to be the proper place for that macro level config Member: what S wants it there's personalizaiton but not customization, but ??? can still implement it, not exposing it to end user. Sasha: rgith which is essentially hacking together an admin interface to make universal prefs make it look like personal prefs, seems a little bit of a hack. Mike: now one poss way to approach is to say that portlet template instances are a lower priority at the moment as we go into discussion phase, we concentrate 1st on those ops that are base, get those locked down, then we come back and talk about the second tier of operations that we think are common but not elemental. but for those of you who want to keep disc flowing and not make it complex, that might be a middle ground that would allow vendors that have this kind of functionality to think they'll get it into the first round of spec. Carson: okay - common denominator, then talk about extending, if template isntance are required (???too soft) Sasha: I have abunch of cases where I think it is needed. Could hack it by reg service with various parameters hack it that way. Mike: how about the claim that it's not elemental for first round of discussion? Sasha: sure. Mike: so let's do walk thru portlet template ops with understanding that we won't go into detail in discussions until we come back to it, but when we do it will be good to understand what are teh ops. Any debate on using a template to create a portlet instance? How about being able to modify portlet template settings? Carson: I think that's okay, <too soft> Mike: still an open question, will get answered same way as we answer personalization data. the 2 kinds of data will logically or physically be tied. We'll get into that disc quickly - that certainly is one of the hot questions. Mike: how about the copy operation? Member: I can imaging a variety of reasons why you'd want to get the settings... is copy just getting the settings and making a new template? Mike: portal getting settings... who wants to get the settings? Member: Trying to concisely say this.... can imagine scenarios where you're attempting to keep synch view of state between portal and portlet and template settings give you base that this comes from. Q is is the portal reuired to store these itself, can it get them from the template? Mike: can you describe a situation where there's value in trying to keep the synchronization? We talked about having one or the other store the data, haven't talked yet about data being stored on both sides. Member: there's a diff between storing it and having access at runtime. value of access at runtime is a performance q of deciding when and how much has to cross network boundary. Thomas: at that point just copy such template once at design time, performance <?> not important Member: would prefer to at least copy it down<?> Member: let's say portlet manages and stores own pers data, but a portal is capable of building generic property picker, can build cust screen for a portlet based on metadata descr of the propertties.in that world a get settings op is valid, would give values that portal would use to update cust screen. Mike: so let's talk about getSettings, is that an op that we agree portlet templates may interact with? sasha: yeah, also seems weird to have a get but not a set. There's a modify... also point was you have a get and a create why do you need a copy separately. I would agreeget settings and create would be sufficient. Mike: the descr of ops is from portal view as oposed to what's reflected to api to portlets, no assumption that there's a physical copy operation that there's a copy api, what I'm trying to describe is there's a copy op from the standpoint of the portal , we need to discuss how that's communicated to the portlet, may be just create isntance and get/set properties. Sasha: understood, okay Member: one of the things I look at is simplicity in interface, if we're talking a higher view from portal side, coyp is useful, it's up to portal auth to implement by a pair of calls, simplicity says drop it as interface op, even if it's an abstract op in the portal. Thomas: interface should not contain redundancy Mike: well, may have redundancey or ability to do bulk request, sometimes too atomic operations give you performance concerns. Member: design ops are more performance tolerant than runtime. Mike: from abstract point of view we agree that copy is an op, and debate is how to ensure express that op is executable in the api. Mike: delete a portlet emplate, any debate on that? Alan: when you delete a template, what happens to instances that may have been created? Mike: good q, will have to define that. If you want my short answer, I think those instances stay around. Thomas: agreed Mike: now if unbound portlet service taht would be a different story, but we'll have to debate that behavior. Jeff: one thing, I think some of these discussions, for the domain of the diff portal vendors, I still vote for simplistic api to establish between consumer and producer some of the things we're discussion will be where the diff portal vendors will distinguish themselves. Mike: right, might be left up to whatever a vendor wants to do, that's a good point. Mike: migrating aportlet template. Means that a template descr is transferred from one portal to another portal, described in relation to be able to support a publishign function where someone is working in a development environment, need to stage the portal and publish to a production environment. Member: a useful scenario, I would get concerned having it part of the standard, have to cover case where this is 2 dissimilar portals that you're xfering between, has impacts on trust relationships we looked at in reg phase. Mike: agree, we can ack we're going to have to discuss this, I would tend to not disc in first rev Sasha: also seems like it requires portal to portal communicaiton not portal to portlet, whichis what we've concentrated on. Thomas: seems to be vendor specific Alan: I have simple use case, if a portal is installed ina clustered environment, we'd have mult instances o fsame portal in which the migration would take place in a well defined manner. Mike: wasn't intending for cross vendor migration, just for migration within a portal type. Sasha: seems like only reason to put instandard is if you want to be cross vendor mike: well if it turns out all vendors end up having to solve this problem and it involved api's to the portlet, then it mihgt be something to include. My take on this is we don't have enough info and it's a secondary function and we should defer it. We may find it becomes something for standardization. Member: is this the portal that currently has the tmplate doing a get settings, new porta doing a create template. Mike: yes, and it gets simpler because you've broken it down to atomic operations. Lets defer breaking it into ops that are necessary to some later revision. Mike: final one is that you can upgrade a portlet template to a new version. Sasha: don't understand this one Mike: if you modify the meta data of the portlet service, there are implications to both template and instances based on those modifications. So all these upgrade bullets are to cover those situations where you have to account for fact that metadata has been modified in the lifecycle of the service. Sasha: you're talking about developer of a portlet service, yes? So if you change hte metatdata of a portlet service. I think that would be then all one operation, could upgrade for teh service would entail all these other things. Mike: correct. what would need to happen if a portal invokes an op that doesn't comply with the new metadata but it did comly with the old metadata. Specify out what the expected behavior is in the case where you can adjust or you can't adjust. Portlet service upgrade is op that kick this all off. Placeholder for us to see if we wanted to describe what happens to a portlet template when a portlet service and it's metadata is upgraded. Does that seem fair? Sasha: interesting disc, don't really see if as a separate operation, but I can see it either way. Would call out that new version of portlet service, it wasn't clear to me you wanted to version portlets it the template, some instances deal with old metatdata, some new metadata... Mike: I'll clarify that. Sasha: would put it as bullet underneath upgrading the service. Mike: will do Mike: okay moving on to instance ops, let me add the getter as well to portlet instance, for same reason as for portlet template. Why don't folks call out their favority one we don't need to be doing at this point, then we can walk thru that small list. Anything that isn't raised we'll assume you agree we should talk about. Thomas: from my point of view we should discuss if actions and events are 2 diff things and define what they really are. Member: agree, don't understand how they differ, don't have enough info to know what of the 2 or if eithe rof the 2 should be included in spec. We need to discuss at higher level what these are before we discuss whether they belong. Thomas: can always think of advanced event... Member: let me explain diff.... action is what we .. op from end user to a specific portlet. Event is something one portlet sends to another portlet or group of portlets. Not tied to end user, might be generated as result of an action but still between portlets. Mike: I'd started with that as high leve, what I want to get into post this meeting is detailed disc of the rules and behaviors how they differ for actions and events, whether actions are just a diff word for event because they happen to be invoked by user, or if they're diff because they have diff rules and behaviors. I need to have more detail about what folks are expecting in these areas before I can make recommendation about appropriateness to spec. Thomas: will write up my understanding. Member: also ??? is writing use case in next couple of days Mike: yeah, it'll be relatively easy to describe value for events, debate is whether it'll be a first tier function or not. will defer until we get better clarification. Mike: other ops for debate? I've seen discussion about clone and copy. Member: yeah clone is interesting ?? op, it has no effect on portlet on producer so it shouldn't be part of discussion here Mike: I'd liek to defer whether it has impact on portlet, sound slike from operational standpoint it's valid, we need to know if it involves the portlet. If not we'll get rid of it ... can we leave it open as a placeholder with that question if it involves portlet as an op? Sasha: relatively low priority, don't see use case for cloning, understand it as a logical op though. Mike: will provide example offline about this. I agree, if cloning wasn't defined & one or two protal vendors who saw value invented a way to do cloning, that would be okay. by cloning that means specifying hte ability for multiple portlet instances to hsare same pers data, that's teh root of what the op is about. We probably think there's value there but we may not need to burden ourselves with specing in the api how to make that occur. correct? Sasha: yeah. I have 2 other things: 1) I'm not sure I agree w/your descr of heirarchical personaliation data... Mike: yeah don't take that part as gospel, used that more as explanation and expect a lot of discussion about pers data, levels of pers data, etc. Sasha: great... Member: I think this is a statement about the portal and quesiton it's relevance to wspr Mike: agree, calling it out was because of emails about pers management, if there is a relationship between pers data either heirarchical or level fashion, it potentially puts a burden on the portlet. It's for further discussion. Sasha: other thing I would say, is I want to call out it doesn't mean things that are just in the portal page, there can be many click through view, look at an email, read a news story... Mike: can you distinguish between whether that's in or out of teh context of the portal, ist he click thru direct communcation to the provider from teh client or is it mediated by the portal? S: mediated Mike: then it's meant to be included in teh request portlet content S: ??? Mike: tried to avoid use of term page and those kinds of things because I didn't want to make assumption about rendering context S: op to render a link reference to itself... mike: yeah, there are user interface design patters which are used for smaller screen devices in which commonly displya pages more as menus... and so the link ref to yourself is an op which says, how do you identify, how do you id it in the menu when you're not asking for its content. Thomas: but hte aggregator has enough info to generate this link Mike: yeah, but what if hte name (title) that wants to get used for that link is something the user can customiaze and the portlet is mainintning ucst s: yeah, portlet oculd generate like a summary and the thing you put on the mnue is the portlet, then the other is the mneu items being text coming back from the portlet and htey link back to something else. I don't understand case in whicn it has to do this... Mike: portal needs to render a link ref to the portlet, I agree we don't need to make assumption if that translates to a request to the portlet instance to render a link to itself. So I'll reword "you can request" to "the portal is... needs to render this information" then we can discuss later what operations the portal uses to actually accomplish that funciton. S: relatively important use case on that is be ablet o send html emails to folks with links back to... Member: is this link ref to be valid what you're talking about is a portlet service, says the portler service has to have http binding. s: not link to portlet but portal displaying that portlets content m: not sure portlet can render in that case S: ???? Link ref to itself not http ref to itself, no assumption of the protocol that url returns, urls are protocol independent. Member: other thing is you called out 4 types of screens a portlet could render: current/help/about/personalization. Do we want to think of these as distinct operations or you can request an instance to render current content, it can set its state and make this an extensible set? Mike: I tend to agree that's a good way to expres the operaiton, was just trying to call out the operational functions from the portal perspective Member: not making it explicity these four types Member: open action model so they can define these on their own. Sasha: also good to talk about portal template rendering it's customization screen. As logical op... these are the things it could do.. Member: just has to do with how closed a set it appears to be. Mike: want to make number of screens open not closed, I agree. Sasha: important to call out the ones we know we'll need though. And then the portlet template needs the same thing. Mike: for all of these things I make note of, if I've neglected to include anything, let me know and I'll go back. Any other instance operations to talk about? FOr example I might suggest that converting a portlet instance to a portlet template is potentially something for the future rather than now. Thomas: agree Mike: any other comments on that? Member: only other comment, service off line and coming back on line, it might just be clarifying what you mean there, at level of wsdl bind/unbind, or is it register, deregister? Mike: this is while you are registered, there may be times when the portal or portlet decides that communication should not occur for the time being. <missed 1 minute> it's a service operation not on an intsance basis, you did it on the whole class. Why don't we clarification, we can pick that up next thursday if we don't do it over email over the course of the week. Same for the upgrade, other ones are... what I'll do next is begin to regenerate teh list of questions that I've accumulated from emails under each operations, suggest areas for us to begin talking about right away. Okay, lets wrap up... Thomas: this time next week is in the middle of the WSIA face to face... Mike: let's wait 2 weeks for the next concall if that seems agreeable to folks and just do discussion via email.--- End Message ---
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