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Subject: RE: [wsia] [wsrp] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Merged interfacesdocument


Title: Message
Carsten,
 
I apologize for the confusion.
 
What I meant to say is that SOAP relies on an underlying stack of protocols.
 
In our case, we can safely assume as much as optimization is concerned that the underlying protocol is HTTP (unless anybody has in mind SMTP portlets).
 
In this case, one can use HTTP/1.1 as a transport mechanism for the SOAP requests. This does not require new opening new connections for every request.
 
However, as you noted, this is not part of the common frameworks for SOAP. However, let's not forget that we must support the standard stack (SOAP/HTTP) but leveraging the existing frameworks is extremely important, but if there is a certain optimization that people can do outside those frameworks this is not something that should discouraged.
 
More specifically, on the client (Consumer) side, I don't see this as a concern since we only need to have one proxy and we can manually construct it if necessary for the extra performance (it wouldn't be the first time that performance requires extra work, and I prefer that to a solution that the interface inherently implies extra work).
 
On the server (Producer) side, I am more concerned: I am completely unaware of what the coupling between the Web server and the underlying frameworks is. If someone has an idea whether HTTP/1.1 can be forced to be used there, that would be beneficial.
 
I disagree with you that is "tweaking" the transport: this may be tweaking the existing SOAP frameworks, but hey: they are just piece of auxiliary code, and I would rather look at is as moving beyond the infancy of the those frameworks.
 
Eilon
-----Original Message-----
From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:47 AM
To: Eilon Reshef
Cc: wsia@lists.oasis-open.org; wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org; Thomas Klein6
Subject: RE: [wsia] [wsrp] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Merged interfaces document


Eilon - i was not aware of this SOAP functionality. Can you detail a bit on
this topic? How would I setup a batch call programatically? Is this batch
processing part of the standard stacks (SOAP4J, AXIS, .NET)?


Best regards
Carsten Leue

-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401



|---------+----------------------------->
|         |           Eilon Reshef      |
|         |           <eilon.reshef@webc|
|         |           ollage.com>       |
|         |                             |
|         |           06/10/2002 08:33  |
|         |           PM                |
|         |           Please respond to |
|         |           Eilon Reshef      |
|         |                             |
|---------+----------------------------->
  >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

  |                                                                                                                                             |

  |       To:       wsia@lists.oasis-open.org, wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org                                                                        |

  |       cc:                                                                                                                                   |

  |       Subject:  RE: [wsia] [wsrp] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Merged interfaces document                                                   |

  |                                                                                                                                             |

  |                                                                                                                                             |

  >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|



Rich, isn't call batching available today at part of the relevant SOAP
stack via HTTP/1.1, unless you use a code library that doesn't support it?
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
      Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 1:21 PM
      To: wsia@lists.oasis-open.org; wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
      Subject: RE: [wsia] [wsrp] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Merged
      interfaces document




      We have to work through the array idea as it as big performance
      implications and I don't see any indications that call batching at
      the SOAP
      stack level will be available in a relatively short timeframe.


      My understanding from the WSRP interfaces discussions is that a
      template is
      a portal concept. It is effectively a configured portlet that is used
      from
      a toolbox to design pages. The concept of an instance is a configured

      portlet that is linked to the layout of a portal page. This
      configuration
      MAY have come from cloning a template. From the perspective of what
      the
      Producer needs to support, both of these are particular
      configurations of
      an entity the service exposes with the Consumer choosing to use them
      in
      different ways. I have been searching for reasons why there would be
      a
      difference for the entity, but haven't found one yet.


      If I understand your question about transient entities correctly, you
      see
      why sessions should be separated from entities so that they can be
      shared
      but question whether services will ever expose entities that aren't
      persistent. I can certainly imagine entities with no persistence (the

      service that hosts them likely has some persistence of who may use
      them
      along with some use log for audit & billing purposes). A simple
      entity that
      puts a UI on a stock ticker feed may be a good example. It chooses to

      delegate all the billing issues to the service where it is deployed
      and all
      the configuration persistence to its Consumers. In this case,
      createPersistentEntities() would always fail as only transient
      entities are
      supported.







                            Andre Kramer

                            <andre.kramer@eu.        To:       Rich
      Thompson/Watson/IBM@IBMUS, wsia@lists.oasis-open.org,
                            citrix.com>
      wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
                                                     cc:

                            06/10/2002 10:37         Subject:  RE: [wsia]
      [wsrp] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Merged
                            AM                        interfaces
      document








      Supporting a batch operation mode through arrays does not seem very
      clean.
      In the "getFragment"
      case (getFragments?), the portal will most likely then have to wait
      until
      the whole array is
      returned (i.e. all remote portlets have rendered) before it can
      display the
      resulting mark-up.
      How many consumer to producer parallel calls do we expect typically?
      I
      would
      rather leave
      call batching up to the (future) SOAP stack.


      Always using "Entity" as the thing to create remotely seem to loose
      the
      "class" versus "object"
      semantics that the WSRP "template" and "instance" operation names
      used to
      imply. Do we now see no
      no difference between remote data storage - 'templates' (possibly
      with
      inheritance) and
      computational entities - 'instances', that WSRP seems to naturally
      call
      for?
      Or are these the
      persistent v.s. transient entities of the document (for me, portlet
      instances persist too)?


      In trying to follow the discussion, I'm confused as to why we need
      both
      sessions and transient
      entities, both being under the control of the consumer. I do see a
      need for
      common sessions
      (same user/group or consumer portal) but do not see the need for
      other
      transient entities,
      expecting a consumer to have to pay for all entities, in some way, in
      the
      real world. I know
      the next call will discuss these but could someone give a brief
      rational
      before then?


      Thanks,
      Andre


      Andre Kramer, Citrix Systems, Inc.


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
      Sent: 07 June 2002 20:38
      To: wsia@lists.oasis-open.org; wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
      Subject: [wsia] [wsrp] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Merged interfaces

      document






      Here is a draft of the merged interfaces document that Carsten and I
      have
      been working on this week. The largest conceptual change from the
      previous
      0.44 Joint Spec Draft is the appearance of arrays in most of the
      operations. This allows Consumers on the scale of portals to
      efficiently
      interact with Producer services.


      (See attached file: WSIA - WSRP Interface Specification.doc)









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