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Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11June


I find that the question of a Consumer creating a persistent vs. a transient
entity to be a little troubling.

Isn't the Consumer primarily interested in getting a handle to an _entity_
(be that transient or persistent), and then using that handle to direct
subsequent requests to?

Could we not consider persistence and transience to be entirely Producer
concerns?  I understand from the sequence in the spec (pp. 6-8) that the
only supporting scenario for the Consumer calling "createTransientEntity" is
out of an effort to maximize the efficiency of the conversation with the
Producer.  This is a worthy goal, of course, but the Producer should
advertise its interaction behavior in the meta-data, right?  Presumably the
Producer uses the meta-data to hint to the Consumer the way(s) the Consumer
SHOULD structure invocation requests efficiently.

I'd love to see some more convincing scenarios to support pushing the
persistent/transient aspect of the conversation out to the Consumer.
Otherwise, I'd love even more to limit our specification to a single
"createEntity" call.

Alan


-----Original Message-----
From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:19 AM
To: Gil Tayar
Cc: thomas klein6; 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org';
'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'
Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
Tuesday 11 June



Gil -

1-3: the consumer MUST explicitly create entities (transient or
persistent). It can decide to create sessions explicitly if it wants to
share them amongs entities, otherwise it can let the producer create
sessions on the fly.
4: the decision to have multiple entities per session is up to the consumer
who make this choice based on the producer's metadata. e.g think of
portlets that form a shop together. These would want to share a session
with each other. But the consumer could decide to have two shops of the
same type on the same page. Then there would be two sessions and only the
consumer could know what portlet shares what session.
5: The consumer should create a session before issuing a getFragment call.
The entity is created whenever necessary.
6: A Session is a bucket that holds some data (physically on the provider)
and times-out after a while. A transient entity is a remote portlet that
does not store any data in a DB.

Hope that helped.

Best regards
Carsten Leue

-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401



|---------+---------------------------->
|         |           Gil Tayar        |
|         |           <Gil.Tayar@webcol|
|         |           lage.com>        |
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|         |           06/11/2002 09:28 |
|         |           AM               |
|         |           Please respond to|
|         |           Gil Tayar        |
|         |                            |
|---------+---------------------------->
 
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  |       To:       Carsten Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE
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  |       cc:       "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'"
<wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'"
<wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, Thomas|
  |        Klein6/Germany/IBM@IBMDE
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  |       Subject:  RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda
for Tuesday        11 June                                            |
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Carsten, could you clarify some things for me?

1. If sessions and entities are orthogonal, what SHOULD the Consumer do?
2. SHOULD it create a transient entity _and_ a session?
3. MUST it do so?
4. Who gets to decide whether there are multiple entities per session or
multiple sessions per entities?
5. When SHOULD a Consumer create a session and when a transient entity?
6. What _is_ a session, logically? What _is_ a transient entity?

Gil

-----Original Message-----
From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 08:45
To: Alan Kropp
Cc: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'; thomas
klein6
Subject: Re: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
Tuesday 11 June



Alan - some first thoughts

1. the general concept is that entities (transient or persistent) and
sessions are orthogonal. There might be mulitple entities per session and
(at least for persistent entities) multiple sessions per entity. An example
for the first case would be that entities share session data within  the
same user request. An example for the second case are portlets on a common
page (group page) that are access simultaneously by multiple users.
A transient entity differs from a persistent entity in that its data does
not persist and its lifecycle is coupled with the session life cycle.

2. Eilon pointed out in a comment to the interface proposal that batch
processing is already part of SOAP. I was not aware of that and will look
it up until the call.


Best regards
Carsten Leue

-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401



|---------+---------------------------->
|         |           Alan Kropp       |
|         |           <akropp@epicentri|
|         |           c.com>           |
|         |                            |
|         |           06/11/2002 01:54 |
|         |           AM               |
|         |           Please respond to|
|         |           Alan Kropp       |
|         |                            |
|---------+---------------------------->

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  |       To:       "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'"
<wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'"
<wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>        |
  |       cc:
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  |       Subject:  [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
Tuesday 11  June                                                      |
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I think we'll have plenty of discussion around the merged document Rich and
Carsten put together.

The two main issues I see that have arisen on the email lists are:

1.  What is the difference between transient entities and sessions, and is
there enough of a distinction to warrant including both in the
specification?

2.  There are efficiency concerns around the use of arrays in the method
signatures, basically to enable batched requests for network efficiency.


Call-in numbers:
 USA Toll Free Number: 877-718-0936
 USA Toll Number: +1-712-923-6878
 PARTICIPANT PASSCODE: 563151


Alan


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