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Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11June



The search service is implemented on the Consumer in this scenario. The
Consumer is choosing to place a map relative to each record in its search
results. In general it is the generation of a dynamic page where an entity
is used in the dynamic portion of the page.



                                                                                                                    
                      Alan Kropp                                                                                    
                      <akropp@epicentri        To:       "'Eilon Reshef'" <eilon.reshef@webcollage.com>, Alan Kropp 
                      c.com>                    <akropp@epicentric.com>, wsia@lists.oasis-open.org,                 
                                                wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org                                           
                      06/11/2002 03:04         cc:                                                                  
                      PM                       Subject:  RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for  
                                                Tuesday  11 June                                                    
                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                    



Hi Eilon,

It seems to me the Consumer still doesn't really need a say in how the
Producer implements the search service runtime model.  It's true that if
the Producer creates all of these transient entities, there is the issue of
when it is "safe" to destroy them.  Transient entities don't have an
inherent lifecycle, but the sessions which talk to them do...so, when these
sessions have timed out, the Producer is able to determine that a transient
entity is no longer a party to any active session.  Would it be valid to
say that the Producer, at that point, may assume the transient entity is
stale and destroy it?  I guess this is a variation on reference counting/GC
that Java developers are already familiar with.

I don't think it's unrealistic to expect the Producer to employ
intelligence like this to efficiently manage its entities.

Alan


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Eilon Reshef [mailto:eilon.reshef@webcollage.com]
      Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:36 AM
      To: 'Alan Kropp'; wsia@lists.oasis-open.org;
      wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
      Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
      Tuesday 11 June

      Alan,

      I think that one example scenario is a search results page, say for
      hotels, that dynamically displays multiple maps - a map for each
      hotel found.

      Assuming that maps are remote services, and assuming that the number
      of results is dynamic, the Consumer needs to create multiple copies
      of the map service. If we allow the Producer to determine the
      persistence state of those maps, that would mean that someone will
      have to take care of the lifetime of those maps. The Consumer can't,
      because the page may be gone without the Consumer never knowing about
      it (the user closes the browser window). The Producer can't, because
      it can't tell whether the Consumer has stored a reference to those
      maps as part of a design-time description of a user page.

      Is that along the lines of what you were looking for?

      Eilon
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Alan Kropp [mailto:akropp@epicentric.com]
            Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:18 PM
            To: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'
            Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda
            for Tuesday 11 June



            I find that the question of a Consumer creating a persistent
            vs. a transient
            entity to be a little troubling.


            Isn't the Consumer primarily interested in getting a handle to
            an _entity_
            (be that transient or persistent), and then using that handle
            to direct
            subsequent requests to?


            Could we not consider persistence and transience to be entirely
            Producer
            concerns?  I understand from the sequence in the spec (pp. 6-8)
            that the
            only supporting scenario for the Consumer calling
            "createTransientEntity" is
            out of an effort to maximize the efficiency of the conversation
            with the
            Producer.  This is a worthy goal, of course, but the Producer
            should
            advertise its interaction behavior in the meta-data, right?
            Presumably the
            Producer uses the meta-data to hint to the Consumer the way(s)
            the Consumer
            SHOULD structure invocation requests efficiently.


            I'd love to see some more convincing scenarios to support
            pushing the
            persistent/transient aspect of the conversation out to the
            Consumer.
            Otherwise, I'd love even more to limit our specification to a
            single
            "createEntity" call.


            Alan





            -----Original Message-----
            From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com]
            Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:19 AM
            To: Gil Tayar
            Cc: thomas klein6; 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org';
            'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'
            Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda
            for
            Tuesday 11 June






            Gil -


            1-3: the consumer MUST explicitly create entities (transient or

            persistent). It can decide to create sessions explicitly if it
            wants to
            share them amongs entities, otherwise it can let the producer
            create
            sessions on the fly.
            4: the decision to have multiple entities per session is up to
            the consumer
            who make this choice based on the producer's metadata. e.g
            think of
            portlets that form a shop together. These would want to share a
            session
            with each other. But the consumer could decide to have two
            shops of the
            same type on the same page. Then there would be two sessions
            and only the
            consumer could know what portlet shares what session.
            5: The consumer should create a session before issuing a
            getFragment call.
            The entity is created whenever necessary.
            6: A Session is a bucket that holds some data (physically on
            the provider)
            and times-out after a while. A transient entity is a remote
            portlet that
            does not store any data in a DB.


            Hope that helped.


            Best regards
            Carsten Leue


            -------
            Dr. Carsten Leue
            Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
            Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401






            |---------+---------------------------->
            |         |           Gil Tayar        |
            |         |           <Gil.Tayar@webcol|
            |         |           lage.com>        |
            |         |                            |
            |         |           06/11/2002 09:28 |
            |         |           AM               |
            |         |           Please respond to|
            |         |           Gil Tayar        |
            |         |                            |
            |---------+---------------------------->

            >
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              |
            |
              |       To:       Carsten Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE
            |
              |       cc:       "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'"
            <wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'"
            <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, Thomas|
              |        Klein6/Germany/IBM@IBMDE
            |
              |       Subject:  RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint
            interfaces] agenda
            for Tuesday        11 June
            |
              |
            |
              |
            |

            >
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            Carsten, could you clarify some things for me?


            1. If sessions and entities are orthogonal, what SHOULD the
            Consumer do?
            2. SHOULD it create a transient entity _and_ a session?
            3. MUST it do so?
            4. Who gets to decide whether there are multiple entities per
            session or
            multiple sessions per entities?
            5. When SHOULD a Consumer create a session and when a transient
            entity?
            6. What _is_ a session, logically? What _is_ a transient
            entity?


            Gil


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com]
            Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 08:45
            To: Alan Kropp
            Cc: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org';
            thomas
            klein6
            Subject: Re: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda
            for
            Tuesday 11 June






            Alan - some first thoughts


            1. the general concept is that entities (transient or
            persistent) and
            sessions are orthogonal. There might be mulitple entities per
            session and
            (at least for persistent entities) multiple sessions per
            entity. An example
            for the first case would be that entities share session data
            within  the
            same user request. An example for the second case are portlets
            on a common
            page (group page) that are access simultaneously by multiple
            users.
            A transient entity differs from a persistent entity in that its
            data does
            not persist and its lifecycle is coupled with the session life
            cycle.


            2. Eilon pointed out in a comment to the interface proposal
            that batch
            processing is already part of SOAP. I was not aware of that and
            will look
            it up until the call.





            Best regards
            Carsten Leue


            -------
            Dr. Carsten Leue
            Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
            Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401






            |---------+---------------------------->
            |         |           Alan Kropp       |
            |         |           <akropp@epicentri|
            |         |           c.com>           |
            |         |                            |
            |         |           06/11/2002 01:54 |
            |         |           AM               |
            |         |           Please respond to|
            |         |           Alan Kropp       |
            |         |                            |
            |---------+---------------------------->


            >
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              |
            |
              |       To:       "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'"
            <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'"
            <wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>        |
              |       cc:
            |
              |       Subject:  [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces]
            agenda for
            Tuesday 11  June
            |
              |
            |
              |
            |


            >
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            I think we'll have plenty of discussion around the merged
            document Rich and
            Carsten put together.


            The two main issues I see that have arisen on the email lists
            are:


            1.  What is the difference between transient entities and
            sessions, and is
            there enough of a distinction to warrant including both in the
            specification?


            2.  There are efficiency concerns around the use of arrays in
            the method
            signatures, basically to enable batched requests for network
            efficiency.





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            Alan





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