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Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Search results page,map services, transient entities.
Ravi - I think the idea here is that the consumer performs the search and displays an own portlet for each individual search result entry. So the decision on how to generate markup for the search result would be up to the producer. The scenario - at least from my understanding - should not describe one portlet displaying the results just as a special view state. Of course this would also be a valid option (maybe even a common one), but here the producer would perform the search, not the consumer. Best regards Carsten Leue ------- Dr. Carsten Leue Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory Böblingen , Germany Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401 |---------+----------------------------> | | Ravi | | | Konuru/Watson/IBM| | | @IBMUS | | | | | | 06/12/2002 04:53 | | | PM | | | Please respond to| | | Ravi Konuru | | | | |---------+----------------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: wsia@lists.oasis-open.org, wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org | | cc: | | Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Search results page, map services, transient entities. | | | | | >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| I don't understand why transient entities are created in this scenario. Why is the search results page creating the transient entities? I can think of a case where the search results page provides a set of clickable GIFs that correspond to the hotel services but NOT actually create transient entities at the Producer. If the user actually clicks on one of them, it is at that time the consumer requests the producer to create an entity (transient or persistent) and then embeds the output of the entity in its web page. Am I missing something? thanks, Ravi Konuru (Embedded image moved to file: pic30566.gif)Carsten Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE (Embe (Embedded image moved to (Embedded image moved to file: dded file: pic26324.gif) pic15315.gif) image Cars moved ten To: Eilon Reshef to Leue <eilon.reshef@webcollage.com> file: /Ger cc: "'Alan Kropp'" pic32 many <akropp@epicentric.com>, 174.g /IBM wsia@lists.oasis-open.org, if) @IBM wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org DE Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June 06/1 2/20 02 06:5 7 AM I think that this is a very good scenario where transient entities make sense. Best regards Carsten Leue ------- Dr. Carsten Leue Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory Böblingen , Germany Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401 |---------+-----------------------------> | | Eilon Reshef | | | <eilon.reshef@webc| | | ollage.com> | | | | | | 06/11/2002 08:35 | | | PM | | | Please respond to | | | Eilon Reshef | | | | |---------+-----------------------------> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "'Alan Kropp'" <akropp@epicentric.com>, wsia@lists.oasis-open.org, wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org | | cc: | | Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June | | | | | > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Alan, I think that one example scenario is a search results page, say for hotels, that dynamically displays multiple maps - a map for each hotel found. Assuming that maps are remote services, and assuming that the number of results is dynamic, the Consumer needs to create multiple copies of the map service. If we allow the Producer to determine the persistence state of those maps, that would mean that someone will have to take care of the lifetime of those maps. The Consumer can't, because the page may be gone without the Consumer never knowing about it (the user closes the browser window). The Producer can't, because it can't tell whether the Consumer has stored a reference to those maps as part of a design-time description of a user page. Is that along the lines of what you were looking for? Eilon -----Original Message----- From: Alan Kropp [mailto:akropp@epicentric.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:18 PM To: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org' Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June I find that the question of a Consumer creating a persistent vs. a transient entity to be a little troubling. Isn't the Consumer primarily interested in getting a handle to an _entity_ (be that transient or persistent), and then using that handle to direct subsequent requests to? Could we not consider persistence and transience to be entirely Producer concerns? I understand from the sequence in the spec (pp. 6-8) that the only supporting scenario for the Consumer calling "createTransientEntity" is out of an effort to maximize the efficiency of the conversation with the Producer. This is a worthy goal, of course, but the Producer should advertise its interaction behavior in the meta-data, right? Presumably the Producer uses the meta-data to hint to the Consumer the way(s) the Consumer SHOULD structure invocation requests efficiently. I'd love to see some more convincing scenarios to support pushing the persistent/transient aspect of the conversation out to the Consumer. Otherwise, I'd love even more to limit our specification to a single "createEntity" call. Alan -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:19 AM To: Gil Tayar Cc: thomas klein6; 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org' Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June Gil - 1-3: the consumer MUST explicitly create entities (transient or persistent). It can decide to create sessions explicitly if it wants to share them amongs entities, otherwise it can let the producer create sessions on the fly. 4: the decision to have multiple entities per session is up to the consumer who make this choice based on the producer's metadata. e.g think of portlets that form a shop together. These would want to share a session with each other. But the consumer could decide to have two shops of the same type on the same page. Then there would be two sessions and only the consumer could know what portlet shares what session. 5: The consumer should create a session before issuing a getFragment call. The entity is created whenever necessary. 6: A Session is a bucket that holds some data (physically on the provider) and times-out after a while. A transient entity is a remote portlet that does not store any data in a DB. Hope that helped. Best regards Carsten Leue ------- Dr. Carsten Leue Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory Böblingen , Germany Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401 |---------+----------------------------> | | Gil Tayar | | | <Gil.Tayar@webcol| | | lage.com> | | | | | | 06/11/2002 09:28 | | | AM | | | Please respond to| | | Gil Tayar | | | | |---------+----------------------------> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: Carsten Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE | | cc: "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'" <wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'" <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, Thomas| | Klein6/Germany/IBM@IBMDE | | Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June | | | | | > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------| Carsten, could you clarify some things for me? 1. If sessions and entities are orthogonal, what SHOULD the Consumer do? 2. SHOULD it create a transient entity _and_ a session? 3. MUST it do so? 4. Who gets to decide whether there are multiple entities per session or multiple sessions per entities? 5. When SHOULD a Consumer create a session and when a transient entity? 6. What _is_ a session, logically? What _is_ a transient entity? Gil -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 08:45 To: Alan Kropp Cc: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'; thomas klein6 Subject: Re: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June Alan - some first thoughts 1. the general concept is that entities (transient or persistent) and sessions are orthogonal. There might be mulitple entities per session and (at least for persistent entities) multiple sessions per entity. An example for the first case would be that entities share session data within the same user request. An example for the second case are portlets on a common page (group page) that are access simultaneously by multiple users. A transient entity differs from a persistent entity in that its data does not persist and its lifecycle is coupled with the session life cycle. 2. Eilon pointed out in a comment to the interface proposal that batch processing is already part of SOAP. I was not aware of that and will look it up until the call. Best regards Carsten Leue ------- Dr. Carsten Leue Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory Böblingen , Germany Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401 |---------+----------------------------> | | Alan Kropp | | | <akropp@epicentri| | | c.com> | | | | | | 06/11/2002 01:54 | | | AM | | | Please respond to| | | Alan Kropp | | | | |---------+----------------------------> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'" <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'" <wsia@lists.oasis-open.org> | | cc: | | Subject: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June | | | | | > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------| I think we'll have plenty of discussion around the merged document Rich and Carsten put together. The two main issues I see that have arisen on the email lists are: 1. What is the difference between transient entities and sessions, and is there enough of a distinction to warrant including both in the specification? 2. There are efficiency concerns around the use of arrays in the method signatures, basically to enable batched requests for network efficiency. Call-in numbers: USA Toll Free Number: 877-718-0936 USA Toll Number: +1-712-923-6878 PARTICIPANT PASSCODE: 563151 Alan ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
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