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Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Search results pag e,map services, transient entities.
Alan - my comments are embedded in [CL] tags. Best regards Carsten Leue ------- Dr. Carsten Leue Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory Böblingen , Germany Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401 |---------+----------------------------> | | Alan Kropp | | | <akropp@epicentri| | | c.com> | | | | | | 06/12/2002 08:17 | | | PM | | | Please respond to| | | Alan Kropp | | | | |---------+----------------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: wsia@lists.oasis-open.org, wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org | | cc: | | Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Search results pag e, map services, transient entities. | | | | | >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| I'm coming around to this idea. I guess that coming from the web app background, it's difficult to conceive of OO concepts overlaying neatly on top of the stateless, loosely-coupled world of HTTP. I tend to think of Ravi's approach as somehow more "natural" for this sort of application, but completely see Rich's point. So to make sure I've got this..The Consumer tells the Producer to construct n transient entities, one for each hotel in the search results. [CL] agree [CL] Each transient entity represents a distinct state (hotel=Downtown Hilton, city=Toronto). [CL] agree [CL] The Consumer can then call performAction() (I don't think it's getFragment?) on each transient entity, to get back an appropriate GIF that it uses to render the results page. [CL] the consumer would integrate the transient entities in its aggregation procedure and call getFragments to get the markup. Such a markup could be a GIF of the map but also any other (e.g. textual) information. [CL] When the user clicks the GIF, the Consumer transmits a getFragment() request to the transient entity, which responds with the full-size map GIF, and perhaps text driving directions. [CL] It would be performAction, but the result would be the same. [CL] On the Producer side of this, I can see a streamlined implementation where there's an instance (in the OO sense) to represent the MapQuest entity, and each transient entity is really an in-memory representation of the appropriate transient state. The transient entity handle in the request (either performAction or getFragment) tells the Producer which transient state to "connect" the MapQuest entity to for this request. [CL] agree [CL] Alan -----Original Message----- From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:23 AM To: wsia@lists.oasis-open.org; wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Search results page, map services, transient entities. It sounds like you are questioning whether the design proposed for the Consumer's search result page makes sense. I would respond that not only does it make sense, I have seen the equivalent on the web already (don't remember where, but it was the basic scenario Eilon laid out). You are basically there when you state that the search page could present a set of clickable GIFs ... the question is where do these come from. Two basic choices are that the Consumer prefetches them into a local cache and just makes a connection to the search result record OR that for each result record, the Consumer creates a transient entity at a Producer, sets the configuration such that an appropriate GIF is generated and the Producer includes whatever logic is needed to deal with clicks on the GIF. I would argue that the architecture should not exclude either approach (both have their advantages) and that the second approach is a good case where the context known only by the Consumer is what dictates whether a persistent or transient entity is appropriate. Ravi Konuru/Watson/IBM To: wsia@lists.oasis-open.org, wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org @IBMUS cc: Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Search 06/12/2002 10:53 results page, map services, transient entities. AM I don't understand why transient entities are created in this scenario. Why is the search results page creating the transient entities? I can think of a case where the search results page provides a set of clickable GIFs that correspond to the hotel services but NOT actually create transient entities at the Producer. If the user actually clicks on one of them, it is at that time the consumer requests the producer to create an entity (transient or persistent) and then embeds the output of the entity in its web page. Am I missing something? thanks, Ravi Konuru (Embedded image moved to file: pic28419.gif)Carsten Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE (Embed (Embedded image moved to file: (Embedded image moved to file: ded pic00419.gif) pic30879.gif) image Carsten moved Leue/Germa To: Eilon Reshef to ny/IBM@IBM <eilon.reshef@webcollage.com> file: DE cc: "'Alan Kropp'" pic116 <akropp@epicentric.com>, 57.gif wsia@lists.oasis-open.org, ) 06/12/2002 wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org 06:57 AM Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June I think that this is a very good scenario where transient entities make sense. Best regards Carsten Leue ------- Dr. Carsten Leue Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory Böblingen , Germany Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401 |---------+-----------------------------> | | Eilon Reshef | | | <eilon.reshef@webc| | | ollage.com> | | | | | | 06/11/2002 08:35 | | | PM | | | Please respond to | | | Eilon Reshef | | | | |---------+-----------------------------> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "'Alan Kropp'" <akropp@epicentric.com>, wsia@lists.oasis-open.org, wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org | | cc: | | Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June | | | | | > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------| Alan, I think that one example scenario is a search results page, say for hotels, that dynamically displays multiple maps - a map for each hotel found. Assuming that maps are remote services, and assuming that the number of results is dynamic, the Consumer needs to create multiple copies of the map service. If we allow the Producer to determine the persistence state of those maps, that would mean that someone will have to take care of the lifetime of those maps. The Consumer can't, because the page may be gone without the Consumer never knowing about it (the user closes the browser window). The Producer can't, because it can't tell whether the Consumer has stored a reference to those maps as part of a design-time description of a user page. Is that along the lines of what you were looking for? Eilon -----Original Message----- From: Alan Kropp [mailto:akropp@epicentric.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:18 PM To: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org' Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June I find that the question of a Consumer creating a persistent vs. a transient entity to be a little troubling. Isn't the Consumer primarily interested in getting a handle to an _entity_ (be that transient or persistent), and then using that handle to direct subsequent requests to? Could we not consider persistence and transience to be entirely Producer concerns? I understand from the sequence in the spec (pp. 6-8) that the only supporting scenario for the Consumer calling "createTransientEntity" is out of an effort to maximize the efficiency of the conversation with the Producer. This is a worthy goal, of course, but the Producer should advertise its interaction behavior in the meta-data, right? Presumably the Producer uses the meta-data to hint to the Consumer the way(s) the Consumer SHOULD structure invocation requests efficiently. I'd love to see some more convincing scenarios to support pushing the persistent/transient aspect of the conversation out to the Consumer. Otherwise, I'd love even more to limit our specification to a single "createEntity" call. Alan -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:19 AM To: Gil Tayar Cc: thomas klein6; 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org' Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June Gil - 1-3: the consumer MUST explicitly create entities (transient or persistent). It can decide to create sessions explicitly if it wants to share them amongs entities, otherwise it can let the producer create sessions on the fly. 4: the decision to have multiple entities per session is up to the consumer who make this choice based on the producer's metadata. e.g think of portlets that form a shop together. These would want to share a session with each other. But the consumer could decide to have two shops of the same type on the same page. Then there would be two sessions and only the consumer could know what portlet shares what session. 5: The consumer should create a session before issuing a getFragment call. The entity is created whenever necessary. 6: A Session is a bucket that holds some data (physically on the provider) and times-out after a while. A transient entity is a remote portlet that does not store any data in a DB. Hope that helped. Best regards Carsten Leue ------- Dr. Carsten Leue Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory Böblingen , Germany Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401 |---------+----------------------------> | | Gil Tayar | | | <Gil.Tayar@webcol| | | lage.com> | | | | | | 06/11/2002 09:28 | | | AM | | | Please respond to| | | Gil Tayar | | | | |---------+----------------------------> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: Carsten Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE | | cc: "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'" <wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'" <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, Thomas| | Klein6/Germany/IBM@IBMDE | | Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June | | | | | > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------| Carsten, could you clarify some things for me? 1. If sessions and entities are orthogonal, what SHOULD the Consumer do? 2. SHOULD it create a transient entity _and_ a session? 3. MUST it do so? 4. Who gets to decide whether there are multiple entities per session or multiple sessions per entities? 5. When SHOULD a Consumer create a session and when a transient entity? 6. What _is_ a session, logically? What _is_ a transient entity? Gil -----Original Message----- From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 08:45 To: Alan Kropp Cc: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'; thomas klein6 Subject: Re: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June Alan - some first thoughts 1. the general concept is that entities (transient or persistent) and sessions are orthogonal. There might be mulitple entities per session and (at least for persistent entities) multiple sessions per entity. An example for the first case would be that entities share session data within the same user request. An example for the second case are portlets on a common page (group page) that are access simultaneously by multiple users. A transient entity differs from a persistent entity in that its data does not persist and its lifecycle is coupled with the session life cycle. 2. Eilon pointed out in a comment to the interface proposal that batch processing is already part of SOAP. I was not aware of that and will look it up until the call. Best regards Carsten Leue ------- Dr. Carsten Leue Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory Böblingen , Germany Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401 |---------+----------------------------> | | Alan Kropp | | | <akropp@epicentri| | | c.com> | | | | | | 06/11/2002 01:54 | | | AM | | | Please respond to| | | Alan Kropp | | | | |---------+----------------------------> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'" <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'" <wsia@lists.oasis-open.org> | | cc: | | Subject: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for Tuesday 11 June | | | | | > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------| I think we'll have plenty of discussion around the merged document Rich and Carsten put together. The two main issues I see that have arisen on the email lists are: 1. What is the difference between transient entities and sessions, and is there enough of a distinction to warrant including both in the specification? 2. There are efficiency concerns around the use of arrays in the method signatures, basically to enable batched requests for network efficiency. Call-in numbers: USA Toll Free Number: 877-718-0936 USA Toll Number: +1-712-923-6878 PARTICIPANT PASSCODE: 563151 Alan ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
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