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Subject: RE: [wsia] Re: RE: [wsrp] Sessions and Transient Entities



My opinion is that we should explicitly allow the consumer to create
sessions. This is simple and clear.

Best regards
Carsten Leue

-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401



|---------+---------------------------->
|         |           Rex Brooks       |
|         |           <rexb@starbourne.|
|         |           com>             |
|         |                            |
|         |           06/13/2002 05:53 |
|         |           AM               |
|         |           Please respond to|
|         |           Rex Brooks       |
|         |                            |
|---------+---------------------------->
  >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
  |                                                                                                                                             |
  |       To:       Eilon Reshef <eilon.reshef@webcollage.com>, "'Rex Brooks'" <rexb@starbourne.com>, wsia@lists.oasis-open.org,                |
  |        wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org                                                                                                            |
  |       cc:                                                                                                                                   |
  |       Subject:  RE: [wsia] Re: RE: [wsrp] Sessions and Transient Entities                                                                   |
  |                                                                                                                                             |
  |                                                                                                                                             |
  >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|



I hope we hear a few more opinions. I'm not clear that this makes the
interface simpler. If it does and we get consensus on it, I'll be happy to
go along with it. I agree with Rich for this version.

Rex


At 9:09 PM -0400 6/12/02, Eilon Reshef wrote:
      Rex,

      We are all trying to simplify the interface. If we can achieve the
      same results (namely, Portlet Grouping/Scoping) without the need to
      have an explicit interface for creating sessions, we are all better
      off.

      Eilon
            -----Original Message-----
            From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
            Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:39 PM
            To: Eilon Reshef; wsia@lists.oasis-open.org;
            wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
            Subject: RE: [wsia] Re: RE: [wsrp] Sessions and Transient
            Entities
            I think we are already getting down to too much micromanaging.
            Why should I care how a producer manages their portlets,
            transient entities or any combinations thereof in one of my
            sessions? As long as I get back what I ask for, I don't see
            what difference it makes.

            Ciao,
            Rex


            At 6:53 PM -0400 6/12/02, Eilon Reshef wrote:
                  Wouldn't it be easier to just pass a key (say:
                  portlet-group-id), that allows the Producer to manage
                  this more carefully than providing access to a low-level
                  mechanism such a session?
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
                        Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 12:27 PM
                        To: wsia@lists.oasis-open.org;
                        wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
                        Subject: [wsia] Re: RE: [wsrp] Sessions and
                        Transient Entities

                        I would agree that supporting explicit creation of
                        sessions is easy means
                        for a Consumer to indicate an arbitrary grouping
                        that it would like to
                        establish. As the Producer is ultimately managing
                        the sessions, it can
                        always enforce whatever policies it would like on
                        these groupings. I would
                        recommend that this version of the spec not try and
                        define how a Producer
                        could expose such policies to the Consumer, though
                        we may want to revisit
                        this question for future versions of the spec if
                        scenarios are defined that
                        demonstrate value to the Consumer in knowing the
                        Producer's policies.



                                              "MICHAEL.FREEDMAN"

                                              <MICHAEL.FREEDMAN@        To:
                        wsia@lists.oasis-open.org,
                        wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
                                              oracle.com>               cc:


                        Subject:  Re: RE: [wsrp] Sessions and Transient
                        Entities
                                              06/12/2002 10:58

                                              AM




                        Irs not so much a bother to allow rather its a no
                        reason to prevent.  If a
                        consumer wants to support such a thing they should
                        be free to do so as this
                        would allow arbitrary groupings (from the
                        perspective of the producer).

                              -Mike-









                              face="Trebuchet MS" color=#0000ff>If a simple
                        group-id within the
                              portlet UI
                              takes care of the issue (which I agree with),
                        why bother to allow the
                              Consumer
                              to create and manage sessions explicitly
                        (versus implicit creation by
                              the
                              Producer)?
                              class=122592900-12062002>
                              class=122592900-12062002> -----Original
                        Message-----
                              From:
                              Michael Freedman [
                        mailto:Michael.Freedman@oracle.com]
                              Sent: Tuesday,
                              June 11, 2002 7:43 PM
                              To: wsia@lists.oasis-open.org;
                              wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
                              Subject: Re: [wsrp] Sessions and Transient
                              Entities

                                    Eilon,
                                      I think your
                                    suggestion intermixes 2 different
                        concepts -- that of session
                                    identity and
                                    that of instance/entity identity.  My
                        scenario 1 concerns
                                    itself with how
                                    an instance/entity id can be used to
                        segment data within a
                                    session.  My
                                    scenario 2 concerns itself with how
                        distinct sessions can be
                                    established/maintained.  I suggested we
                        don't define a way for
                                    the
                                    producer to describe its grouping
                        rules.  Rather a consumer can
                                    choose to
                                    support grouping (via a mechanism its
                        free to define) or leave
                                    it up to the
                                    consumer to handle internally (via
                        perference/configuration
                                    data).  So in
                                    my scenario 2, a consumer isn't
                        responsible for separating the
                                    portlets into
                                    different sessions.  It merely is
                        allowed to do so.  Portlets
                                    must
                                    assume they aren't running in such
                        environments -- rather they
                                    must assume
                                    they run in a shared session world --
                        hence they need an ID to
                                    do the proper
                                    namespacing.  As the consumer doesn't
                        know this grouping
                                    (because it
                                    doesn't implement grouping) the
                        producer must provide its own
                                    UI for getting
                                    these keys -- i.e. the producer must
                        provide a
                                    configuration/personalization
                                    UI that allows a group key to be
                        specified for each of its
                                    portlets -- it can
                                    then use this "internal" group id to
                        key/separate data in the
                                    shared session.

                                    Just a long way of saying -- I don't
                        buy your scenario 2.  If
                                    the
                                    consumer knows the grouping, I would
                        rather the consumer
                                    maintain 2 discrete
                                    sessions as this allows it to continue
                        to pass the entity id so
                                    each entity
                                    can maintain entity specific data if
                        necessary (i.e. portlet A,
                                    B, B' in the
                                    same session/group -- B and B' can keep
                        their data separate).
                                    If the
                                    consumer doesn't know the grouping then
                        it controls things just
                                    like scenario
                                    1.  The producer is free to
                        define/manage finer granularity as
                                    described
                                    above.
                                         -Mike-

                                    Eilon Reshef wrote:
                                            face="Trebuchet MS">Mike,
                        class=731155222-11062002>
                                          face="Trebuchet MS">Per your
                        recent e-mails, I think that
                                          the
                                          approach makes sense.
                        class=731155222-11062002> face
                                          ="Trebuchet MS">The only thing
                        that concerns me is that
                                          we
                                          have two different mechanisms to
                        handle what would seem
                                          to be a very similar
                                          scenario.
                        class=731155222-11062002>Scenario 1:
                                          If there are two occurrences of a
                        single portlet on a
                                          page, then as
                                          you described it the portlet is
                        responsible for
                                          segregating the
                                          occurrence-specific information,
                        using an additional key
                                          provided by the
                                          portal.
                        class=731155222-11062002>Scenario 2:
                                          If there are two occurrences of a
                        pair of portlets, then
                                          suddenly the
                                          portal is responsible for
                        segregating the two pairs by
                                          placing them in two
                                          separate sessions.
                        class=731155222-11062002> face
                                          ="Trebuchet MS">(All, of course,
                        assuming that the
                                          portlets use sessions)
                        class=731155222-11062002> face
                                          ="Trebuchet MS">The idea of the
                        Consumer creating and
                                          managing the segregation keys has
                        the
                                          scalability advantage that you
                        mentioned.
                                          class=731155222-11062002>
                        class=731155222-11062002> face
                                          ="Trebuchet MS">Can't we use it
                        to handle both
                                          scenarios?
                        class=731155222-11062002>
                                          class=731155222-11062002> size
                        =-1>Namely:
                                          class=731155222-11062002>
                        class=731155222-11062002> face
                                          ="Trebuchet MS">In scenario 1,
                        where there's portlets A1
                                          and A2, then the portal sends a
                        key "1" when displaying
                                          A1 and a key "2"
                                          when displaying A2.
                        class=731155222-11062002> face
                                          ="Trebuchet MS">In scenario 2,
                        when there's portlet pairs
                                          <A1, B1> and <A2, B2>, then the
                        portal sends a key "1"
                                          when
                                          displaying A1 and B1 and the key
                        "2" when displaying A2
                                          and
                                          B2. class=731155222-11062002>
                        class=731155222-11062002>
                                          This would
                                          allow the Producer to create and
                        manage the session id
                                          (and maybe even
                                          create them only when needed,
                        instead of explicitly
                                          creating them up-front
                                          as the current draft suggests).
                        The Consumer only has to
                                          take into account
                                          that it may receive (and needs to
                        re-send) a separate
                                          session id for each
                                          one of the keys.
                        class=731155222-11062002>
                                          class=731155222-11062002> face
                        ="Trebuchet MS">Eilon
                                          class=731155222-11062002>
                        class=731155222-11062002>








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