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Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Search results page,map services, transient entities.



Eilon - did we ever restrict ourselves to a scenario where the topology of
the consuming portal was known in advance? I hope not! Dynamically
assembled pages might be very valuable.


Best regards
Carsten Leue

-------
Dr. Carsten Leue
Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401



|---------+----------------------------->
|         |           "Eilon Reshef"    |
|         |           <eilon.reshef@webc|
|         |           ollage.com>       |
|         |                             |
|         |           06/18/2002 06:38  |
|         |           AM                |
|         |           Please respond to |
|         |           "Eilon Reshef"    |
|         |                             |
|---------+----------------------------->
  >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
  |                                                                                                                                             |
  |       To:       Carsten Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE, Ravi Konuru/Watson/IBM@IBMUS                                                                |
  |       cc:       <wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>, <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>                                                                    |
  |       Subject:  RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Search results page, map services, transient entities.                       |
  |                                                                                                                                             |
  |                                                                                                                                             |
  >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|



Carsten,

This is a scenario that is stritcly WSIA and doesn't fall under WSRP. WSRP
handles pages with a pre-defined set of portlets, whereas WSIA allows for a
page with an arbitrary number of portlets, determined in run-time according
to user input. Hence, the need for something beyond a persistent entity.

Eilon
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com]
      Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 12:38 PM
      To: Ravi Konuru
      Cc: wsia@lists.oasis-open.org; wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
      Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] Search
      results page, map services, transient entities.





      Ravi -


      I think the idea here is that the consumer performs the search and
      displays
      an own portlet for each individual search result entry. So the
      decision on
      how to generate markup for the search result would be up to the
      producer.
      The scenario - at least from my understanding - should not describe
      one
      portlet displaying the results just as a special view state. Of
      course this
      would also be a valid option (maybe even a common one), but here the
      producer would perform the search, not the consumer.





      Best regards
      Carsten Leue


      -------
      Dr. Carsten Leue
      Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
      Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401






      |---------+---------------------------->
      |         |           Ravi             |
      |         |           Konuru/Watson/IBM|
      |         |           @IBMUS           |
      |         |                            |
      |         |           06/12/2002 04:53 |
      |         |           PM               |
      |         |           Please respond to|
      |         |           Ravi Konuru      |
      |         |                            |
      |---------+---------------------------->
        >
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|


        |
      |


        |       To:       wsia@lists.oasis-open.org,
      wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org
      |


        |       cc:
      |


        |       Subject:  RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces]
      Search results page, map services, transient entities.
      |


        |
      |


        |
      |


        >
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|






      I don't understand why transient entities are created in this
      scenario. Why
      is the search results page creating the transient entities?
      I can think of a case where the search results page provides a set of

      clickable GIFs that correspond to the hotel services but NOT actually

      create transient entities at the Producer. If the user actually
      clicks on
      one of them, it is at that time the consumer requests the producer to

      create an entity (transient or persistent) and then embeds the output
      of
      the entity in its web page.


      Am I missing something?


      thanks,
      Ravi Konuru


      (Embedded image moved to file: pic30566.gif)Carsten
      Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE



       (Embe (Embedded image moved to     (Embedded image moved to file:

       dded  file: pic26324.gif)          pic15315.gif)

       image                         Cars

       moved                         ten  To: Eilon Reshef

       to                            Leue <eilon.reshef@webcollage.com>

       file:                         /Ger cc: "'Alan Kropp'"

       pic32                         many <akropp@epicentric.com>,

       174.g                         /IBM wsia@lists.oasis-open.org,

       if)                           @IBM wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org

                                     DE   Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia]
      [wsrp-wsia
                                          joint interfaces] agenda for
      Tuesday
                                          11 June

                                     06/1

                                     2/20

                                     02

                                     06:5

                                     7 AM








      I think that this is a very good scenario where transient entities
      make
      sense.





      Best regards
      Carsten Leue


      -------
      Dr. Carsten Leue
      Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
      Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401






      |---------+----------------------------->
      | | Eilon Reshef |
      | | <eilon.reshef@webc|
      | | ollage.com> |
      | | |
      | | 06/11/2002 08:35 |
      | | PM |
      | | Please respond to |
      | | Eilon Reshef |
      | | |
      |---------+----------------------------->
      >
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|


      | |
      | To: "'Alan Kropp'" <akropp@epicentric.com>,
      wsia@lists.oasis-open.org,
      wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org |
      | cc: |
      | Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
      Tuesday 11 June |
      | |
      | |
      >
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|







      Alan,


      I think that one example scenario is a search results page, say for
      hotels,
      that dynamically displays multiple maps - a map for each hotel found.


      Assuming that maps are remote services, and assuming that the number
      of
      results is dynamic, the Consumer needs to create multiple copies of
      the map
      service. If we allow the Producer to determine the persistence state
      of
      those maps, that would mean that someone will have to take care of
      the
      lifetime of those maps. The Consumer can't, because the page may be
      gone
      without the Consumer never knowing about it (the user closes the
      browser
      window). The Producer can't, because it can't tell whether the
      Consumer has
      stored a reference to those maps as part of a design-time description
      of a
      user page.


      Is that along the lines of what you were looking for?


      Eilon
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Alan Kropp [mailto:akropp@epicentric.com]
      Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:18 PM
      To: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'
      Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
      Tuesday 11 June






      I find that the question of a Consumer creating a persistent vs. a
      transient
      entity to be a little troubling.





      Isn't the Consumer primarily interested in getting a handle to an
      _entity_
      (be that transient or persistent), and then using that handle to
      direct
      subsequent requests to?





      Could we not consider persistence and transience to be entirely
      Producer
      concerns? I understand from the sequence in the spec (pp. 6-8) that
      the
      only supporting scenario for the Consumer calling
      "createTransientEntity" is
      out of an effort to maximize the efficiency of the conversation with
      the
      Producer. This is a worthy goal, of course, but the Producer should
      advertise its interaction behavior in the meta-data, right?
      Presumably the
      Producer uses the meta-data to hint to the Consumer the way(s) the
      Consumer
      SHOULD structure invocation requests efficiently.





      I'd love to see some more convincing scenarios to support pushing the


      persistent/transient aspect of the conversation out to the Consumer.
      Otherwise, I'd love even more to limit our specification to a single
      "createEntity" call.





      Alan








      -----Original Message-----
      From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com]
      Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:19 AM
      To: Gil Tayar
      Cc: thomas klein6; 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org';
      'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'
      Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
      Tuesday 11 June









      Gil -





      1-3: the consumer MUST explicitly create entities (transient or
      persistent). It can decide to create sessions explicitly if it wants
      to
      share them amongs entities, otherwise it can let the producer create
      sessions on the fly.
      4: the decision to have multiple entities per session is up to the
      consumer
      who make this choice based on the producer's metadata. e.g think of
      portlets that form a shop together. These would want to share a
      session
      with each other. But the consumer could decide to have two shops of
      the
      same type on the same page. Then there would be two sessions and only

      the
      consumer could know what portlet shares what session.
      5: The consumer should create a session before issuing a getFragment
      call.
      The entity is created whenever necessary.
      6: A Session is a bucket that holds some data (physically on the
      provider)
      and times-out after a while. A transient entity is a remote portlet
      that
      does not store any data in a DB.





      Hope that helped.





      Best regards
      Carsten Leue





      -------
      Dr. Carsten Leue
      Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
      Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401









      |---------+---------------------------->
      | | Gil Tayar |
      | | <Gil.Tayar@webcol|
      | | lage.com> |
      | | |
      | | 06/11/2002 09:28 |
      | | AM |
      | | Please respond to|
      | | Gil Tayar |
      | | |
      |---------+---------------------------->


      >
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------



      ------------------------------------------------------------------|
      |
      |
      | To: Carsten Leue/Germany/IBM@IBMDE
      |
      | cc: "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'"
      <wsia@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'"
      <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, Thomas|
      | Klein6/Germany/IBM@IBMDE
      |
      | Subject: RE: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces]
      agenda
      for Tuesday 11 June
      |
      |
      |
      |
      |


      >
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------



      ------------------------------------------------------------------|









      Carsten, could you clarify some things for me?





      1. If sessions and entities are orthogonal, what SHOULD the Consumer
      do?
      2. SHOULD it create a transient entity _and_ a session?
      3. MUST it do so?
      4. Who gets to decide whether there are multiple entities per session

      or
      multiple sessions per entities?
      5. When SHOULD a Consumer create a session and when a transient
      entity?
      6. What _is_ a session, logically? What _is_ a transient entity?





      Gil





      -----Original Message-----
      From: Carsten Leue [mailto:CLEUE@de.ibm.com]
      Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 08:45
      To: Alan Kropp
      Cc: 'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'; 'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'; thomas
      klein6
      Subject: Re: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda for
      Tuesday 11 June









      Alan - some first thoughts





      1. the general concept is that entities (transient or persistent) and


      sessions are orthogonal. There might be mulitple entities per session

      and
      (at least for persistent entities) multiple sessions per entity. An
      example
      for the first case would be that entities share session data within
      the
      same user request. An example for the second case are portlets on a
      common
      page (group page) that are access simultaneously by multiple users.
      A transient entity differs from a persistent entity in that its data
      does
      not persist and its lifecycle is coupled with the session life cycle.





      2. Eilon pointed out in a comment to the interface proposal that
      batch
      processing is already part of SOAP. I was not aware of that and will
      look
      it up until the call.








      Best regards
      Carsten Leue





      -------
      Dr. Carsten Leue
      Dept.8288, IBM Laboratory B÷blingen , Germany
      Tel.: +49-7031-16-4603, Fax: +49-7031-16-4401









      |---------+---------------------------->
      | | Alan Kropp |
      | | <akropp@epicentri|
      | | c.com> |
      | | |
      | | 06/11/2002 01:54 |
      | | AM |
      | | Please respond to|
      | | Alan Kropp |
      | | |
      |---------+---------------------------->





      >
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------



      ------------------------------------------------------------------|
      |
      |
      | To: "'wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org'"
      <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'wsia@lists.oasis-open.org'"
      <wsia@lists.oasis-open.org> |
      | cc:
      |
      | Subject: [wsrp] [wsia] [wsrp-wsia joint interfaces] agenda
      for
      Tuesday 11 June
      |
      |
      |
      |
      |





      >
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------



      ------------------------------------------------------------------|









      I think we'll have plenty of discussion around the merged document
      Rich and
      Carsten put together.





      The two main issues I see that have arisen on the email lists are:





      1. What is the difference between transient entities and sessions,
      and is
      there enough of a distinction to warrant including both in the
      specification?





      2. There are efficiency concerns around the use of arrays in the
      method
      signatures, basically to enable batched requests for network
      efficiency.








      Call-in numbers:
      USA Toll Free Number: 877-718-0936
      USA Toll Number: +1-712-923-6878
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      Alan








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