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Subject: [xacml] XACML April 4, 2002 Minutes

Title: XACML Conference Call Minutes

XACML Conference Call

Date:  Thursday, April 4, 2002

Time: 10:00 AM EST

Tel: 512-225-3050 Access Code: 65998

Minutes of Meeting



A discussion on DRM and XrML TC was added to the agenda. The general consensus is that there is overlap and we should be concerned about that. Oasis will not prevent two overlapping committees from existing, so XACML members are encouraged to get involved with XrML to help resolve these issues. Their first F2F is 5/21 in DC. The IBM IP statement was also discussed but little is known about what it covers. Michiharu will find out more and report back. The schema subcommittee reported their progress and they are beginning by breaking into task forces to tackle the different areas of the schema.


It was also agreed that progress needs to start on the security and privacy, conformance and example application sections of the document. Various people volunteered to work on those areas and begin reporting back at the next TC meeting. Other areas of the document that need work are SAML profiles, error codes, extensibility (to be covered by Schema Subcommittee), policy storage profiles (LDAP/DSML, HTTP, JDBC, CORBA RAD).


There was not time remaining to vote on the issues to close so Carlisle will begin that process over email and it will take 5 days. The meeting ended with some discussion of the next F2F in Milan on 4/22 - 4/24.


Action Items

  1. Simon to be reminded one more time to send his F2F#3 presentation to Michiharu for posting to the website.
  2. [Hal, Konstantin] to produce an XACML "primer" that provides more verbal text describing function and use of the various element types at the appropriate time (ed note: Suggest a date be decided on and this be added to the calendar and removed from the action  item list.)
  3. Ernesto to appoint someone to update the TC on subcommittee progress if he will not be on a TC call (ed note: Suggest this apply to all subcommittees)
  4. Michiharu will brief the TC further on the extent of IBM's patents and provide an official translation (or at least and English description) of the Japanese patent that has already been published.
  5. Michiharu and Anne to develop description of example applications, specifically for XML documents and J2SE
  6. Ken and Polar to begin work on conformance
  7. James and Polar to begin work on Security and Privacy.
  8. Carlisle to begin email voting process for closing issues.



Voted to approve minutes of 3/7, F2F#4, 3/21 Meetings with inclusion of amendments posted to the list.


Proposed Agenda:

10:00-10:10 Roll Call and Agenda Review

10:10-10:15 Vote to accept minutes of March 21 meeting


10:15-10:20 Review of Action Items (see 3/21 minutes)

10:20-10:30 Report of Schema Sub-Committee

(in particular, proposals for Focus Group topics)

10:30-10:50 Discussion of Overall Status

(in particular, vote to close several items on current issues list)


10:50-11:00 Discussion of logistics for next face-to-face meeting


Roll Call

James MacLean, Affinitex

Ken Yagen, Crosslogix

Hal Lockhart, Entegrity

Carlisle Adams, Entrust

Tim Moses, Entrust

Michiharu Kudoh, IBM

Bill Parducci, Self

Polar Humenn, Self

Pierangela Samarati, University of Milan

Ernesto Damiani, University of Milan

Sekhar Vajjhala, Sun Microsystems

Anne Anderson, Sun Microsystems


Raw Minutes (taken by Ken Yagen)


Agenda Review

Hal - 2 new issues

*Need to approve 3/7 and F2F minutes as well because no quorum last time

*Discussion about Digital Rights/XrML

Anne - 4 new proposals to close issues that need voting

Tim - IBM's IP notice


Acceptance of Minutes

3/7, F2F, 3/21 Voted and approved with posted amendments



Existing Action Items

  1. Simon to send presentation from F2F3 to Michiharu for website

Carried for a long time. Was for historical purposes. Will remind Simon one more time then drop it.

  1. Anne to propose a new resolution to PM 2-05

Polar has presented a newer resolution and is up for voting

  1. [Hal, Konstantin] Produce XACML "primer" that provides more verbal text describing function and use of the various element types. 

Meant to start a little while from now

  1. Carlisle will send out poll on dates for next F2F

Decided on April 22 - 24 in Milan

  1. Carlisle will send out note to list noting closing of Policy Subcommittee

Done and transitioned to Schema committee 10-12 Eastern

  1. Ken will update issues list so we can vote on closed issues for April 4th. Collect and send out email to make sure none that have been missed.


  1. Ernesto would look into pseudocode for possible candidates

All came up with was a list of best practices for writing pseudocode. Anne suggested using Java like syntax to express standard combination algorithm. Added to issues list as an issue that can be addressed. V12 algorithms resemble Java.

  1. Michiharu to post material presented at the last F2F meeting on the website


  1. Chair needed for new Schema subcommittee

Chair is Ernesto. If cannot attend regular TC call, should appoint someone to update the TC. Hal - will be reporting on two meetings since TC call every other week.



Update on DRM and XrML TC (Hal)

Initial submission of XrML but charter of TC as proposed is to continue the work done on XrML. Concern of a substantial overlap. Karl stated nothing in OASIS rules to prevent this. Darwinian model of specifications. Formation of TC would create a venue for deciding if duplicating our work. Just need three members to form TC. Couple XACML members thinking of getting involved. Hal may outline a synthesis proposal. XACML is more general but XrML is more fully developed in their target scope area. May want to stick their specifics into the XACML framework.

Ernesto - are they willing to take into account what we are doing?

Carlisle - First meeting Tuesday, May 21 in DC area. Encourage others to join and monitor it and raise concerns of overlap.

Hal - Lot of history of this happening in security business with a bad effect. If cannot merge, only basis for difference in domain scopes is that their scope is limited purely to the distribution of intellectual property. Would not cover exchange of medical information.

Members - ContentGuard, HP, MS, Verisign, Reuters. MPEG has agreed to use it as official standard.


IBM IP statement

Carlisle - Not issued patents so no one knows what area is being claimed.

Michiharu - cannot provide information on what the patent claims cover. Will prepare something for the next meeting.

Anne - what Sun has done has issue a statement that any IP that is owned will be available without need for special license or fee to implementers of standard. OASIS only requires reasonable and non-discrimatory terms.


[Action Item] Is it possible to get official translation or at least description in English of formal content. Michiharu will ask someone if that is possible.


Schema Subcommittee

Ernesto - subdivide schema into different task forces to work on proposals offline. Sent out proposal for first suggested set of task forces. Tim replied with alternative set of task forces.  Objective on Monday to have finally list of task forces and have members join task forces.


Tim - other subcommittees: conformance, security and privacy

Carlisle - need to start exploring these other aspects to make June 1 submission.

Michiharu - description of example applications is important one. It may be a part of the spec. Michiharu will lead that activity, but not sure how document is assembled.

XML documents, J2SE environment - Anne can assist on this.


Ken - I'd be happy to help out on conformance.

Hal - Think about it and identify issues. Have a set of policies and see if PDP can return correct SAML decision.

Ken - take a look at Conformance TC guideline and give it some thought.

Polar - Can help out as well.


Security and Privacy - Polar and James (James is currently listed as chair)

Draw from SAML as a starting point.


Could begin and get back at next TC how things are going.

Hal - Document outline would be useful at this point.


Tim Possibly drop S&P in to Version 13 of document


Tim - placeholders for SAML profiles, error codes, extensibility (covered by Schema subcommittee)

Carlisle - profiles for storage of policies in LDAP

Tim - have a couple pages on that but could use more work. What about HTTP, JDBC? People want others, should be added.

Polar - CORBA RAD spec?


Bill - What about DSML? Describing LDAP schemas via XML

Anne - will float to Sun XML people.

Hal - two issues: format (DSML may describe) and naming.


Carlisle - propose turn to Email vote for issues ready to close

Hal - vote on batch as one vote.

Carlisle - will take batch and other 4 Anne has mentioned and send out notes to list to begin an email vote. Votes last 5 days.

Anne - actually 5.



F2F Logistics

Rate of 50 Euros for one hotel

Transportation logistics. Malpensa is far from city but can take bus or train (1 hour) Can arrange taxi for you (van) if around same time from US.

Contact Pierangela individually and number of nights and she can collect and get back to us with a proposal.

[Dropped off at this point]



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