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Subject: RE: [xacml] DRAFT minutes from F2F

Please add me to the attendees list.  Many thanks.
Steve Anderson

-----Original Message-----
From: bill parducci [mailto:bill.parducci@overxeer.com]
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 11:23 AM
To: xacml
Subject: [xacml] DRAFT minutes from F2F

here are my notes from the F2F meeting this week. i welcome review and 
input from those who attended (if possible before the next concall).

i think that the meeting was quite successful in providing understanding 
on the requirements, goals and definitions of the Work Items proposed 
for version two. from the discussions it is apparent that XACML will be 
tackling some complex issues, but the general feeling seems to be that 
we now have enough common understanding to move forward effectively via 
concall and mailing list.



F2F Meeting – Oct. 20, 2003 – BEA, San Jose

Frank Siebenlist
Anne Anderson
Tim Moses
Polar Humenn
Daniel Engovatov
Bill Parducci
Michiharu Kudo
Michael McIntosh
Anthony Nadalin
MaryAnn Hondo
Jacques Durand
Hal Lockhart

Reviewed Work Items:
(minutes refer to discussion topics by Work Item number)

2. Seth now Champion for the modified version of this WI. A new item 
(#41) has been created to cover generalizing classification of entities 
and declaration (third schema to represent?)  Daniel will address this 
by Nov. 3.

7. Proposes that condition references to be used to allow for reuse of 
conditions. Limited to conditions within the same policy. Proposal is 
fairly complete and is ready for review and decision.

8. Proposes that rule references to be used to allow for reuse of rules. 
May span across policies. This implies that the rule becomes the lowest 
administrative unit. This is dependent upon the decision of #19. 
Decision of the group is that #19 is not valid since the use case may be 
resolved having policies containing single rules.

9. Proposes extended syntax to address hierarchical Subject, Actions and 
Resources.  Concern is that it is Resource specific and that it may be 
able difficult to address the intricacies of any given Resource domain. 
It was decided that hierarchical polices and hierarchical requests (new 
WI, #42) be split apart for discussion and consideration.

10. Proposes extended syntax for Combining Algorithms to allow for the 
influence of rule combination evaluation by parameters of the rules 
themselves. There is general agreement on the value of this approach, 
however it is not thought to be widely required. Therefore the feeling 
is that this should be handled via an extension point added to the 
schema. This WI is therefore closed and the topic taken up in #11.

12. Proposes environment attributes for Target. VOTE: approve as 
proposed – 8 FOR, 1 Abstain (Daniel, pending discussion of function 
extensions). Closed.

16. Determined that this doesn’t introduce anything new to 
specification. Closed.

17. Determined that this doesn’t introduce anything new to 
specification. Closed.

19. Closed in junction with discussion of #8.

26. Satisfied by existing specification using Policy Combination 
Algorithm. Closed.

29. Proposes delegation of policy combination with the constraint that 
authorization assertions be passed with requests from remote (trusted) 
systems. The scope to the problem is not fully understood by the group 
and the proposal was made to pursue administrative policy solutions 
first, then return to this issue. Also includes #38 (placing conditions 
on members of the delegation chain for operating on policies.)

30. Proposed that policy may be passed with an access request. There is 
concern that this will create issues with combinations of other 
applicable policies. It has been suggested that there the use case may 
be addressed by making remote PAP accessible to local PDP. This 
mechanism is related to #29 & #38 and will be discussed in the context 
of these issues.

35. Proposes that there is policy specifically developed to cover the 
return of missing attributes in decisions with Not Applicable results. 
It has been suggested that this is covered by the current specification. 
Documentation that details how this may be treated in XACML needs to be 

36. Proposes that PDP have formally defined access control mechanism to 
downstream PDPs. This is not consistent with what was generally 
understood by the group from the original WI. There is concern that the 
scope of this problem is outside of what is practically addressable in 
XACML. Further clarification is necessary. This will likely tie into the 
discussion of #29, #30 & #38.

37. Proposes a shorthand model for passing multiple elements. Deferred 
until tomorrow (rest of group arrives).

38. Covered in #30. Deferred pending outcome of #30.

40. Proposes optimized Policy query in SAML. Two non-conflicting 
proposals are on the table. This will be discussed further on the e-mail 


F2F Meeting – Oct. 21, 2003 – BEA, San Jose

Frank Siebenlist
Anne Anderson
Tim Moses
Polar Humenn
Daniel Engovatov
Simon Godik
Bill Parducci
Michiharu Kudo
Michael McIntosh
Rebekah Lepro
Hal Lockhart
Steve Anderson

Reviewed the discussions of Monday’s meeting.

Anne provided a historical review of derivation of single attribute 
value model in current spec.

(minutes refer to discussion topics by Work Item number)

37. Based on the general belief that this proposal will not affect XPath 
attribute queries, the consensus is that this item be approved pending 
further clarification (cardinality & descriptive schema changes). Rebeka 
will provide a first pass at the changes for the Editor.

Hierarchical authorization issues:

9. Resources – If you want to support request that specify the resource 
as a hierarchy (specifically, XML), there must be instance at request. 
Wildcards are allowed in hierarchical policies.

42. Requests – hierarchical resource requests MUST use the “scope” 
attribute when intentionally requesting resources with subordinate data 
members (vs. using /* in an XPath expression). Clarification is required 
to define how responses for situations where hierarchical resources 
without descendants are queried for descendant access.

Policy Administration:

A number of proposals were discussed, however no clear solution arose as 
the majority of the session involved the expression of the requirements.

A higher order requirement proposed by Frank is the ability to evaluate 
policies taking into consideration “admin” of the policy to allow for 
policy chain decisions.


F2F Meeting – Oct. 22, 2003 – BEA, San Jose

Frank Siebenlist
Anne Anderson
Tim Moses
Polar Humenn
Simon Godik
Bill Parducci
Michael McIntosh
Rebekah Lepro
Hal Lockhart
Steve Anderson
Anthony Nadalin
MaryAnn Hondo
Jacques Durand

Reviewed the discussions of Tuesday’s meeting.

Anne reviewed her Administrative Policy proposal. Frank’s and Polar will 
post their respective AP proposals to the mailing list.

Anne & Tim proposed that the XACML TC continue its work on the current 
WSPL proposal, focusing on the authorization policy constraints of Web 
Services. The premise is that this work adopt/integrate the efforts of 
proposed policy advertising committees as (as yet undefined in Oasis & 
W3C). Until such time the group would provide examples of how this 
mechanism would work; the intent of the group is that this non-normative 
output would be replaced/merged with forthcoming standards in this area.

Scope of proposed work:

1. Subset of XACML suitable for describing conditions on access control 
related attributes that are: (1). required for accessing a service; (2). 
available for a presentation service accessor. NORMATIVE.

2. Combining subset instances from above to determine a mutually 
acceptable set of access control related attributes. NORMATIVE.

3. Examples of how such instances are associated with WSDL at message, 
operation port type, etc. NON-NORMATIVE.

The group decided that this scope is acceptable and that work will 
continue as defined above.

Tim reviewed an approach for LDAP storage of policies to address 
many-to-many PDP/PAP relationships.  The topic was also raised as to 
whether remote policy requests should be considered.

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