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Subject: Re: [xcbf] NetMeeting
Hi Tyky, I can help anyone that needs it with the set up of NetMeeting. They can contact me to arrange a time to test their connectivity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul E. Thorpe Toll Free : 1-888-OSS-ASN1 OSS Nokalva International: 1-732-302-0750 Email: thorpe@oss.com Tech Support : 1-732-302-9669 http://www.oss.com Fax : 1-732-302-0023 On Wed, 21 May 2003, Tyky Aichelen wrote: > > > > > John, > I personally don't think a paragraph by paragraph pass over the document is > necessary, but if anyone feels strongly about it, please speak up and I > would be willing to do it. > Just a pass over the specific paragraphs and the specific approaches that > we still don't have the consensus, so we can reach the final decision quick > and move on without delay. > I add now Netmeeting as topic in the agenda as you requested (Sorry, I just > forgot it!). Yes, we can explore the use of Netmeeting from now on in > addition to the telecon for greater productivity. We need to enlist a > NetMeeting expert to help set everyone up. Any volunteer? > > Best regards, > Tyky Aichelen > > > > > John Larmouth > <j.larmouth@salfo To: Tyky Aichelen/San Jose/IBM@IBMUS > rd.ac.uk> cc: xcbf <xcbf@lists.oasis-open.org> > Subject: Re: [xcbf] An alternative proposal has been uploaded > 05/21/2003 06:55 > AM > Please respond to > j.larmouth > > > > > > > Tyky, > > I will be at the ITU-T buiding in Geneva 6pm Geneva time (which I > *think* - hope - is the right time), and they have a high bandwidth > Internet connection. > > So it is my intention to come in using Net2Phone, provided they do not > have a fire-wall that stops me, but even Net2Phone is not totally free, > so I may want to drop out and let others resolve the final decision. > > If I get blocked by a fire-wall, I will have to come in extremely > briefly by ordinary phone, or do an MSN Messenger Chat with Bancroft or > Paul Thorpe relaying between me and the telecon. (I hope that won't be > necessary.) > > But as I said in my mail, I will go with any of the options if we can > only get consensus, so you don't really need me. It people have > specific questions or comments on my analysis (such as Ed's mailing that > them to the list before Thursday evening UK time, just in case I > cannot get through to the telecon. > > If you want to do a paragraph by paragraph pass over the document, then > I strongly recommend using NetMeeting for that. This would cost us two > weeks delay, but equally would give us two weeks for everyone to > establish that they could use NetMeeting. > > Thanks. > > John L > > PS I did not see on your agenda discussion on the use of NetMeeting, > which I requested. > > > Tyky Aichelen wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Team, > > Re the subject: I would like for us all to jointly reach the decision on > > this Friday telecon ( I had included it in the agenda), that way we all > > know how broadly is the OK. > > John: Count on you to call-in. Thanks for your hard work and all the > > analysis you sent in. > > > > Best regards, > > Tyky Aichelen > > > > > > > > > > > John Larmouth > > > <j.larmouth@salfo To: Ed Day > <eday@obj-sys.com> > > rd.ac.uk> cc: xcbf > <xcbf@lists.oasis-open.org> > > Subject: Re: [xcbf] An > alternative proposal has been uploaded > > 05/20/2003 12:44 > > > PM > > > Please respond to > > > j.larmouth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OK. > > > > That is a good reason for staying with BASE64. And Phil quietly flipped > > a bit when I proposed we dropped it, so I guess the "alternative > > proposal" is dead. > > > > Back to the first proposed revision. > > > > Is that broadly OK? > > > > John L > > > > > > Ed Day wrote: > > > >>>Is the reduction worth having? Here we have to examine where and when > >>>BASE64 is applied in the first proposal (which mirrors the last proposal > >> > >>>from Phil, in this regard). It is applied ONLY to the octet strings > >> > >>>that contain X.509 certificates and X.509 certificate revocation lists, > >>>and ONLY if the outer-level encoding is BASIC-XER, not if BER is used. > >>>So it will produce a 30% reduction in a couple of octet strings that > >>>will form a very small part of the total (verbose) XML document. The > >>>gains are actually miniscule. > >> > >> > >>Based on my experience with security specs, I know of instances where > >>certificate revocation lists can be *very* large. So I think a 30% > >>reduction is a big deal. > >> > >>Regards, > >> > >>Ed > >> > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "John Larmouth" <j.larmouth@salford.ac.uk> > >>To: <j.larmouth@salford.ac.uk> > >>Cc: <xcbf@lists.oasis-open.org> > >>Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 8:59 AM > >>Subject: [xcbf] An alternative proposal has been uploaded > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>You will shortly get (or have already got) official notification from > >>>the OASIS Web software that I have uploaded another document. > >>> > >>>This is an alternative proposal, based on NOT using BASE64. > >>> > >>>I want to discuss here some points related to the use or non-use of > >>>BASE64, in order to allow an informed decision on which to progress to a > >>> CS ballot. > >>> > >>>(BOTH documents are complete specifications that I personally am happy > >>>with, and would vote YES on either. I do, however, as will become clear > >>>below, prefer this second proposal, as it is much simpler and easier to > >>>implement, loses virtually nothing, and does not require a revision when > >>>EXTENDED-XER is approved.) > >>> > >>>It hung in the balance on our last telecon whether to use BASE64 or not, > >>>with most people saying they did not really care, with the decision to > >>>use it swinging almost entirely on the remarks from Bancroft and myself > >>>that Phil, who left the meeting early, would be strongly pushing for > >>>BASE64. That may well still be true. But a technical assesment > follows. > >>> > >>>First, let us dispose of the "BASE64 armoured" concept. You will see > >>>that I deleted that term from the text in both proposals. It is > >>>meaningless when applied to an octet string value. A hex encoding of an > >>>octet string value is just as much "armoured" as a base64 encoding. The > >>>**only** difference is that the number of characters needed by base64 is > >>>typically reduced by 30% from the hex character count. I repeat, this > >>>is the ONLY difference for an octet string. > >>> > >>>The term "base64 armoured" CAN be legitimately applied to a character > >>>string. This is actually its main value in EXTENDED-XER. > >>> > >>>The point here is that the rules of XML FORBID some characters in an XML > >>>document, EVEN IF THEY ARE EXPRESSED USING THE XML-DEFINED ESCAPE > >>>MECHANISMS. So if you want your character string (at the abstract level) > >>>to be able to carry all ISO 10646 | Unicode characters, you cannot do it > >>>using either the UTF8 encoding of the character nor using the > >>>XML-defined escape sequences without violating XML rules. Applying > >>>BASE64 to the UTF8-encoding of the character string value and then > >>>UTF8-encoding the BASE64 characters allows that XML element to contain a > >>>representation of ANY character string, without violating XML rules. > >>>This is truly "base64 armouring". Typically, the size of the encoding > >>>will be INCREASED by 30%. > >>> > >>>But to repeat myself, when applied to an OCTET STRING, base64 does > >>>nothing that hex does not do other than reducing the verbosiuty by 30%. > >>> > >>>Is the reduction worth having? Here we have to examine where and when > >>>BASE64 is applied in the first proposal (which mirrors the last proposal > >> > >>>from Phil, in this regard). It is applied ONLY to the octet strings > >> > >>>that contain X.509 certificates and X.509 certificate revocation lists, > >>>and ONLY if the outer-level encoding is BASIC-XER, not if BER is used. > >>>So it will produce a 30% reduction in a couple of octet strings that > >>>will form a very small part of the total (verbose) XML document. The > >>>gains are actually miniscule. > >>> > >>>(There is the small(?) point that XCBF and ANSI X9.84 - currently out > >>>for public comment - are aligned in this area. If BASE64 is NOT used in > >>>XCBF, it would be good to get comment to have it removed in X9.84 as > >>>well, so that the two stay aligned.) > >>> > >>>Now, OK. But why not avoid problems with non-compatibility with X9.84 > >>>and stay with BASE64 for these two octet strings? What are the > >>>disadvantages? They certainly exist. > >>> > >>>We have tried to say that the use of BASE64 is "in anticipation" of the > >>>X.693 ammendment 1 that defines EXTENDED-XER. I think the text I have > >>>given you is about as good as can be got in this area (see the footnotes > >>>1, 2, and 3 in the first proposed revision and the text in 7.4.2 - use > >>>the "View Print Layout" to see the footnotes). > >>> > >>>This "anticipation" is in itself a bit unsatisfactory, but the problems > >>>are more serious. > >>> > >>>I want to draw attention to footnote 3, and to expand on it. Here is a > >>>copy of that footnote: > >>> > >>> > >>>This is in anticipation of the acceptance of Amendment 1 to X.693, which > >>>makes provision for the use of BASE64 encodings. Formal use of this > >>>amendment will require the outer level encoding to be changed to > >>>EXTENDED-XER (see 7.4.3) and the addition of XER encoding instructions. > >>> This will also imply that a decoder will be required to accept the > >>>presence of XML DTDs, Processing Instructions, Comment, and accept and > >>>ignore attributes such as xsi:type and xsi:SchemaLocation. > >>><<<<<<< > >>> > >>>This footnote raises ambiguity on what is a conforming implementation to > >>>this actual spec: is a conforming implementation required to conform to > >>>BASIC-XER until the Amendment is approved, and then to EXTENDED-XER? I > >>>think I have written the text in such a way that EXTENDED-XER is NEVER > >>>used unless or until we produce a new version of the spec referring to > >>>EXTENDED-XER rather than to BASIC-XER. Remember, the only reason for > >>>wanting to do that is this minimal use of BASE64 in the current spec, > >>>and alignment with X9.84 (which in my view has also probably got it > >>>wrong!) But X9.84 will not get finally approved until after the > >>>Amendment is in place, and the overheads of a full EXTENDED-XER encoding > >>>(see below) are likely to be more acceptable there than in an OASIS > >>>standard????? > >>> > >>>What are the overheads of saying that the outer-level is EXTENDED-XER > >>>and not BASIC-XER? The above copy of the footnote summarises it. It is > >>>importent here to realise that the primary raison d'etre for > >>>EXTENDED-XER was to provide support for the mapping from XSD, and the > >>>use of ASN.1 in conjunction with general XML/XSD tools. A BASIC-XER > >>>encoding (in the absence of EXTENDED-XER encoding instructions) *is* a > >>>valid EXTENDED-XER encoding, so for encoders there is no problem. The > >>>problem is for conforming decoders. They are REQUIRED to accept DTDs in > >>>the XML document (for example that define character entities to reduce > >>>the verbosity of some XML documents), and they are REQUIRED to accept > >>>and ignore random xsi:type and xsi:SchemaLocation attributes, and they > >>>are REQUIRED to accept XML Proceeing Instructions and Comment wherever > >>>XML permits these to occur (more-or-less everywhere). All this adds to > >>>the implementation cost of an EXTENDED-XER decoder. > >>> > >>>Note that there is no option available in prospective ASN.1 > >>>standardisation to be able to include an encoding instruction to say > >>>"BASE64" **without** the requirement for a decoder to accept these > >>>additional options in the encoding. > >>> > >>>So the real issue is not so much which spec we decide to approve now, > >>>but rather where we intend to progress after that. We can: > >>> > >>>a) Use the alternative proposal (no use of BASE64), and be finished and > >>>simple, but not (currently) X9.84 compatible, and **very** marginally > >>>more verbose; or > >>> > >>>b) Use the first proposed revision and never move formally to > >>>EXTENDED-XER, accepting that we will be doing a "special" for our > >>>encodings, albeit a "special" that tool vendors that have imnplemented > >>>EXTENDED-XER can easily support, because all it means is an EXTENDED-XER > >>>encoder (to recognise the [XER:BASE64] syntax) and a decoder with lots > >>>of functionality that should never get used. (In this case, the first > >>>of my "proposed revision" documents could probably remove all text about > >>>"anticipation" and EXTENDED-XER, and just openly admit it is a > >>>non-standard encoding that we are requiring). > >>> > >>>c) Use my first proposed revision, and then produce a new version that > >>>formally says that EXTENDED-XER is to be used. This is what the current > >>>text of the first proposed revision was targeting ("anticipating"), and > >>>we should not need to change that text for this option, but XCBF > >>>decoders would have a harder job in the long-term. > >>> > >>>The only disadvantage of a) is that it may not be X9.84 compatible, > >>>unless X9.84 is changed on public comment. Does that matter? Can X9.84 > >>>be changed to align with a)? There are NO technical disadvantages with > >>>a), as explained above. > >>> > >>>The only disadvantage of b) is a "special" encoding, but one that is > >>>probably fairly easy for tool vendors to support. This may or may not > >>>be X9.84 incompatible, depending on whether X9.84 is clarified to say it > >>>really means EXTENDED-XER, or whether it is clarified to say it is this > >>>"special" encoding with BASIC-XER. (Like the text I inherited, X9.84 is > >>>utterly ambiguous in this regard at present.) > >>> > >>>The disadvantages with c) are: The potential confusion in the > >>>"anticipating" concept, and in a second OASIS spec that says > >>>EXTENDED-XER when the first said BASIC-XER; The extra complexity of > >>>requiring decoders to suppotr the full range of additional encodings > >>>(DTDs, comment, etc) of EXTENDED-XER in the long-term. > >>> > >>>I am sorry this has been such a long "essay". I believe what I have > >>>said is factually correct, but there are clearly subjective judgments to > >>>be applied. > >>> > >>>The bottom-line is that I will personally go for any of a) to c), we > >>>just need a decision. > >>> > >>>John L > >>> > >>>-- > >>>PLEASE NOTE - As an anti-SPAM measure, e-mails will shortly > >>>not be accepted by my machine from an unknown sender unless > >>>the subject contains the phrase "Hi John". > >>> > >>>If you pass my e-mail address to others (which I am very happy > >>>for you to do) please tell them to include this phrase in the > >>>subject line of their first mailing to me. Thanks. > >>> > >>> Prof John Larmouth > >>> Larmouth T&PDS Ltd > >>> (Training and Protocol Development Services Ltd) > >>> 1 Blueberry Road > >>> Bowdon j.larmouth@salford.ac.uk > >>> Cheshire WA14 3LS (put "Hi John" in subject) > >>> England > >>> Tel: +44 161 928 1605 Fax: +44 161 928 8069 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>You may leave a Technical Committee at any time by visiting > >> > >> > > > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/xcbf/members/leave_workgroup.ph > > > > > > >>p > >> > >> > >> > >>You may leave a Technical Committee at any time by visiting > > > > > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/xcbf/members/leave_workgroup.php > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > > PLEASE NOTE - As an anti-SPAM measure, e-mails will shortly > > not be accepted by my machine from an unknown sender unless > > the subject contains the phrase "Hi John". > > > > If you pass my e-mail address to others (which I am very happy > > for you to do) please tell them to include this phrase in the > > subject line of their first mailing to me. Thanks. > > > > Prof John Larmouth > > Larmouth T&PDS Ltd > > (Training and Protocol Development Services Ltd) > > 1 Blueberry Road > > Bowdon j.larmouth@salford.ac.uk > > Cheshire WA14 3LS (put "Hi John" in subject) > > England > > Tel: +44 161 928 1605 Fax: +44 161 928 8069 > > > > > > > > > > You may leave a Technical Committee at any time by visiting > > > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/xcbf/members/leave_workgroup.php > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may leave a Technical Committee at any time by visiting > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/xcbf/members/leave_workgroup.php > > > > > > > > > > -- > PLEASE NOTE - As an anti-SPAM measure, e-mails will shortly > not be accepted by my machine from an unknown sender unless > the subject contains the phrase "Hi John". > > If you pass my e-mail address to others (which I am very happy > for you to do) please tell them to include this phrase in the > subject line of their first mailing to me. Thanks. > > Prof John Larmouth > Larmouth T&PDS Ltd > (Training and Protocol Development Services Ltd) > 1 Blueberry Road > Bowdon j.larmouth@salford.ac.uk > Cheshire WA14 3LS (put "Hi John" in subject) > England > Tel: +44 161 928 1605 Fax: +44 161 928 8069 > > > > > > > > You may leave a Technical Committee at any time by visiting http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/xcbf/members/leave_workgroup.php > >
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