Re: [xdi] Minutes: XDI TC Telecon Friday 2012-04-27

[Cameron Hunt <cam@bitworld.us>]

Markus,

Because I'm impatient I'd like to try the quickest path to 
functionality. So my tendency is to agree to start with something like 
BDB first...


On 2012-04-28 16:09, Markus Sabadello wrote:
> Cam,
>
> In the past, I also stored XDI data in various graph databases, e.g.
> Neo4J.
>
> It does sound nice/reasonable to store XDI in a "graph database" or 
> in
> a "triple store", but you also have to consider that those things are
> not optimized for XDI, and that they "add" a few extra things/layers
> between XDI and the disk. BDB on the other hand is widely known to be
> extremely fast and lightweight. The way I always thought about it is
> that XDI IS ITSELF a graph database, rather than being a higher layer
> on top of a graph database or other complex store.
>
> I think my recommendation would be
>
> - If you need some of the advanced functionality of existing graph
> databases or triple stores, such as special indexing, replication,
> etc., then use those.
> - If you're fine with "standard XDI features" and want to minimize
> footprint, use BDB.
>
> In any case, adding another backend store to either OpenXDI or XDI²
> should not require much work I think.
>
> Looking forward to discussing XDI and the different implementations
> next week with Mike, you, others..!
>
> Markus
>
> On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 12:53 PM, Cameron Hunt <cam@bitworld.us [70]>
> wrote:
>
> > Mike/Marcus,
> >
> > Is there a time in the next week or so where we could discuss the
> > different Java models used in your respective XDI libraries?
> >
> > I find it an open and powerful question to consider storing XDI
> > statements within a graph database vs. key-value store. The most
> > well-known (to me) instance of graph data being stored in key-value
> > is the Large Knowledge Collider project (http://www.larkc.eu/ [66]).
> >
> > Mike - have you thought about porting OX Server to Android?
> >
> > On 2012-04-28 15:07, Michael Schwartz wrote:
> >
> > > Different Java model of XDI.
> > >
> > > On Sat, 28 Apr 2012, Markus Sabadello wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hey Mike, what do you mean by "different XDI model", are you
> > > > referring to
> > > > the question of literal contexts?
> > > >
> > > > Markus
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Michael Schwartz
> > > > <mike@gluu.org [65]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Cam,
> > > > >
> > > > > oxServer currently has two implementations of the XDI graph
> > > > > model: memory
> > > > > and LDAP. If you want to use oxServer, you could implement
> > > > > some/all of the
> > > > > interfaces using BerkleyDB.
> > > > >
> > > > > Markus has a different XDI model, so you should also look at
> > > > > his and see
> > > > > which better suits your requirement.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------**---------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Michael Schwartz
> > > > > Gluu
> > > > > Founder / CEO
> > > > > mike@gluu.org [61]
> > > > > +1 646-810-8761 [62]
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 28 Apr 2012, Cameron Hunt wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >  Apparently the BerkleyDB for Android includes a key/value
> > > > > API. It would
> > > > >
> > > > > > be interesting to see what changes might need to be made to
> > > > > > XDI2 to use
> > > > > > that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have you tried porting XDI2 to Android?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 2012-04-28 13:35, Markus Sabadello wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Cam,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes in the XDI² library [17], the default persistence
> > > > > > > mechanism is to
> > > > > > > store XDI data in a BerkeleyDB..
> > > > > > > This is also what I'm using for XDI on a FreedomBox,
> > > > > > > which (like
> > > > > > > phones) also has limited hardware.
> > > > > > >  So it sounds like this might work for you..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually with the current XDI graph model, it's pretty
> > > > > > > easy to store
> > > > > > > XDI in any kind of key/value based store, so there might
> > > > > > > even be more
> > > > > > > lightweight options than BDB.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Markus
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 8:43 AM, Cameron Hunt
> > > > > > > <cam@bitworld.us [22] [18]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >  Markus,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > bitWorld is behind on a slide deck for our Personal
> > > > > > > > Data Analysis
> > > > > > > > project, but you can see some of the technology
> > > > > > > > components here:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://www.bitworld.us/index.**php?page=pda
> > > > > > > > [10]<http://www.bitworld.us/index.php?page=pda
> > > > > > > > [11]>[13].
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Our current challenge is to test the persistence of
> > > > > > > > funf-collected
> > > > > > > > data as XDI graphs on the phone itself. I've heard a
> > > > > > > > rumor that you
> > > > > > > > might have XDI wrapper code that talks to BerkleyDB. If
> > > > > > > > so, this
> > > > > > > > would dramatically reduce the effort needed to evaluate
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > approach.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On 2012-04-28 03:29, Markus Sabadello wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >  Sorry I couldn't join the call, I was on the plane to
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > California..
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Great to hear Bitworld is using FUNF, I have worked
> > > > > > > > > with that
> > > > > > > > > myself
> > > > > > > > > as well and would love to learn more about what
> > > > > > > > > you're doing..
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Also looking forward to talking more about the test
> > > > > > > > > tools and
> > > > > > > > > OASIS
> > > > > > > > > server at IIW..
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Markus
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 3:01 AM, Drummond Reed
> > > > > > > > > <drummond.reed@xdi.org [9] [5]
> > > > > > > > > [6]> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >  Following are the minutes of the unofficial telecon
> > > > > > > > > of the XDI
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > TC
> > > > > > > > > > at:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Date:  Friday, 27 April 2012 USA
> > > > > > > > > > Time:  9:00AM - 10:30AM Pacific Time (16:00-17:30
> > > > > > > > > > UTC)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ATTENDING
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Cameron Hunt
> > > > > > > > > > Kari Lippert
> > > > > > > > > > Mike Schwartz
> > > > > > > > > > Drummond Reed
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > REGRETS
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Joseph Boyle
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > THE ETHERPAD LINK FOR TODAY IS:
> > > > > > > > > >     http://xdi.idearpad.com/**62 [1]
> > > > > > > > > > <http://xdi.idearpad.com/62 [2]> [1]
> > > > > > > > > > [1]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 1) WELCOME TO BITWORLD
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bitworld has joined OASIS as a non-profit member,
> > > > > > > > > > and Cameron
> > > > > > > > > > Hunt,
> > > > > > > > > > Kari Lippert, and Phil Windley will be
> > > > > > > > > > participating in the XDI
> > > > > > > > > > TC
> > > > > > > > > > under the Bitworld membership.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Cam explained that Bitworld is using FUNF from MIT,
> > > > > > > > > > and wants
> > > > > > > > > > to be
> > > > > > > > > > able to run it on mobile devices like Android. FUNF
> > > > > > > > > > uses SQL
> > > > > > > > > > Lite,
> > > > > > > > > > and thus Bitworld wants to look at writing XDI
> > > > > > > > > > statements
> > > > > > > > > > directly
> > > > > > > > > > into the SQL Lite database.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 2) TEST TOOL
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike gave a demo of the test tool developed by the
> > > > > > > > > > OpenXDI
> > > > > > > > > > Project.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >  http://seed.gluu.org/**oxTestTool [3]
> > > > > > > > > > <http://seed.gluu.org/oxTestTool [4]>[2] [2]
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > More tests are coming next week to show the
> > > > > > > > > > following features:
> > > > > >  http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?**id=oxserver:listoffeatures&s
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > [5]<http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?id=oxserver:listoffeatures&s
> > > > > > > > > > [6]>[3]
> > > > > > > > > > [3][]=features
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike suggests that we run the tests on the
> > > > > > > > > > OASIS-sponsored
> > > > > > > > > > server.
> > > > > > > > > > This coming week at Internet Identity Workshop Mike
> > > > > > > > > > and Markus
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > other TC members that are attending will be able to
> > > > > > > > > > discuss it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 3) XDI QUERY
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike said he was still working on putting the
> > > > > > > > > > requirements in
> > > > > > > > > > priority order. This may be a subject we discuss at
> > > > > > > > > > IIW next
> > > > > > > > > > week.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 4) MODELING DEVICE IDENTITY
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Drummond shared a graph pattern for device identity
> > > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > Bitworld
> > > > > > > > > > needs. This brought up a number of questions
> > > > > > > > > > related to device
> > > > > > > > > > identity, device ownership, and graph organization.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Cam mentioned that in his experience there are
> > > > > > > > > > three key
> > > > > > > > > > factors
> > > > > > > > > > involved with graph modelling:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > * how to model so that persistence and searching is
> > > > > > > > > > optimized
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > * how to model so the presentation layer is
> > > > > > > > > > optimized
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > * how to model so other automated processing (e.g.,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > inferencing) is optimized
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The goal is to minimize the model remapping between
> > > > > > > > > > persistence,
> > > > > > > > > > processing, and display.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike explained that the reason the trend in LDAP
> > > > > > > > > > has been
> > > > > > > > > > towards
> > > > > > > > > > "flat" is that you don't want developers to need to
> > > > > > > > > > know where
> > > > > > > > > > there
> > > > > > > > > > data is, but rather to make it easy to reference.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Drummond agreed that flat is better because that
> > > > > > > > > > way each
> > > > > > > > > > entity
> > > > > > > > > > can be as independent.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike then explained that the OpenXDI implementation
> > > > > > > > > > was less
> > > > > > > > > > concerned about keeping the graph flat because XDI
> > > > > > > > > > makes it
> > > > > > > > > > easier
> > > > > > > > > > to make extensive use of indexing.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > With regard to Bitworld's design choices, Mike also
> > > > > > > > > > suggested
> > > > > > > > > > looking at the oxPlus design:
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > https://svn.gluu.info/**repository/openxdi/code/docs
> > > > > > > > > [7]<https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs
> > > > > > > > > > [8]>[4]
> > > > > > > > > > [4]
> > > > > > > specifically https://svn.gluu.
> > > > > > > [23]**info/repository/openxdi/code/**
>
> docs/oxPlus/seedOverview.ppt<https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs/oxPlus/seedOverview.ppt
> > > > > > > [24]>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > [6]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >  [5]
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mike also said that the location of the link
> > > > > > > > > > contracts is
> > > > > > > > > > critical.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 5) NEXT CALL
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Even though Internet Identity Workshop is next
> > > > > > > > > > week, we will
> > > > > > > > > > still
> > > > > > > > > > hold the next call next week at the regular time.
> > > > > > > > > > One agenda
> > > > > > > > > > item
> > > > > > > > > > will be a summary of the XDI discussions at IIW.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Links:
> > > > > > > > > ------
> > > > > > > > > [1] http://xdi.idearpad.com/62 [12] [7]
> > > > > > > > > [2] http://seed.gluu.org/**oxTestTool
> > > > > > > > > [13]<http://seed.gluu.org/oxTestTool [14]>[8]
> > > > > > > > > [3]
> > > > http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?**id=oxserver:listoffeatures&**amp;s
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > [15]<http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?id=oxserver:listoffeatures&s
> > > > > > > > > [16]>
> > > > > > > > > [9]
> > > > > > > > > [4]
> > > > > > > > > https://svn.gluu.info/**repository/openxdi/code/docs
> > > > > > > > [17]<https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs
> > > > > > > > > [18]>[10]
> > > > > > > > > [5]
> > > > > > > drummond.reed@xdi.org [12]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Cameron Hunt
> > > > > > > Director, bitWorld
> > > > > > > 843.654.4708 [25] [14]
> > >  ------------------------------**------------------------------**
> > > > > > > ---------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > > xdi-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-**open.org
> > > > > > > [26]<xdi-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org [27]>[15]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > di-help@lists.oasis-open.org [16]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Links:
> > > > > > > > ------
> > > > > > > > [1] http://xdi.idearpad.com/62 [20]
> > > > > > > > [2] http://seed.gluu.org/**oxTestTool [21]
> > > > > > > > <http://seed.gluu.org/oxTe
> > > > > > > ;
> > > > > > > [3]
> > > > http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?**id=oxserver:listoffeatures&**amp;s
> > > > > > >
> > > > > [28]<http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?id=oxserver:listoffeatures&s
> > > > > > > [29]>
> > > > > > > [4] https://svn.gluu.info/**repository/openxdi/code/docs
> > > > > > > [30]<https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs
> > > > > > > [31]>
> > > > > > > [5] mailto:drummond.reed@xdi.org [32]
> > > > > > > [6]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://svn.gluu.info/**repository/openxdi/code/docs/**
> > > > > > > [33]
>
> oxPlus/seedOverview.ppt<https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs/oxPlus/seedOverview.ppt
> > > > > > > [34]>
> > > > > > > [7] http://xdi.idearpad.com/62 [35]
> > > > > > > [8] http://seed.gluu.org/**oxTestTool [36]
> > > > > > > <http://seed.gluu.org/oxTestTool [37]>
> > > > > > > [9]
> > > > http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?**id=oxserver:listoffeatures&**amp;s
> > > > > > >
> > > > > [38]<http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?id=oxserver:listoffeatures&s
> > > > > > > [39]>
> > > > > > > [10] https://svn.gluu.info/**repository/openxdi/code/docs
> > > > > > > [40]<https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs
> > > > > > > [41]>
> > > > > > > [11]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://svn.gluu.info/**repository/openxdi/code/docs/**
> > > > > > > [42]
>
> oxPlus/seedOverview.ppt<https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs/oxPlus/seedOverview.ppt
> > > > > > > [43]>
> > > > > > > [12] mailto:drummond.reed@xdi.org [44]
> > > > > > > [13] http://www.bitworld.us/index.**php?page=pda
> > > > > > > [45]<http://www.bitworld.us/index.php?page=pda [46]>
> > > > > > > [14] http://108.160.154.15/tel:843.**654.4708
> > > > > > > [47]<http://108.160.154.15/tel:843.654.4708 [48]>
> > > > > > > [15] mailto:xdi-unsubscribe@lists. [49]**oasis-open.org
> > > > > > > [50]<xdi-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org [51]>
> > > > > > > [16] mailto:xdi-help@lists.oasis- [52]**open.org
> > > > > > > [53]<xdi-help@lists.oasis-open.org [54]>
> > > > > > > [17] http://xdi2.projectdanube.org/ [55]
> > > > > > > [18] mailto:cam@bitworld.us [56]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Cameron Hunt
> > > > > > Director, bitWorld
> > > > > > 843.654.4708 [57]
>
> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---------
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > > > > xdi-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-**open.org
> > > > > > [58]<xdi-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org [59]>
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > > xdi-help@lists.oasis-open.org [60]
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xdi-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > > [63]
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > > > > xdi-help@lists.oasis-open.org [64]
> >
> > --
> > Cameron Hunt
> > Director, bitWorld
> > 843.654.4708 [67]
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: xdi-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org [68]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: xdi-help@lists.oasis-open.org [69]
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://xdi.idearpad.com/**62
> [2] http://xdi.idearpad.com/62
> [3] http://seed.gluu.org/**oxTestTool
> [4] http://seed.gluu.org/oxTestTool
> [5] http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?**id=oxserver:listoffeatures&amp;s
> [6] http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?id=oxserver:listoffeatures&amp;s
> [7] https://svn.gluu.info/**repository/openxdi/code/docs
> [8] https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs
> [9] mailto:drummond.reed@xdi.org
> [10] http://www.bitworld.us/index.**php?page=pda
> [11] http://www.bitworld.us/index.php?page=pda
> [12] http://xdi.idearpad.com/62
> [13] http://seed.gluu.org/**oxTestTool
> [14] http://seed.gluu.org/oxTestTool
> [15] 
> http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?**id=oxserver:listoffeatures&amp;**amp;s
> [16] http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?id=oxserver:listoffeatures&amp;s
> [17] https://svn.gluu.info/**repository/openxdi/code/docs
> [18] https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs
> [19]
>
> https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs/oxPlus/seedOverview.ppt
> [20] http://xdi.idearpad.com/62
> [21] http://seed.gluu.org/**oxTestTool
> [22] mailto:cam@bitworld.us
> [23] https://svn.gluu.
> [24]
>
> https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs/oxPlus/seedOverview.ppt
> [25] http://108.160.154.15/tel:843.654.4708
> [26] http://open.org
> [27] mailto:xdi-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org
> [28] 
> http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?**id=oxserver:listoffeatures&amp;**amp;s
> [29] http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?id=oxserver:listoffeatures&amp;s
> [30] https://svn.gluu.info/**repository/openxdi/code/docs
> [31] https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs
> [32] mailto:drummond.reed@xdi.org
> [33] https://svn.gluu.info/**repository/openxdi/code/docs/**
> [34]
>
> https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs/oxPlus/seedOverview.ppt
> [35] http://xdi.idearpad.com/62
> [36] http://seed.gluu.org/**oxTestTool
> [37] http://seed.gluu.org/oxTestTool
> [38] 
> http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?**id=oxserver:listoffeatures&amp;**amp;s
> [39] http://ox.gluu.org/doku.php?id=oxserver:listoffeatures&amp;s
> [40] https://svn.gluu.info/**repository/openxdi/code/docs
> [41] https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs
> [42] https://svn.gluu.info/**repository/openxdi/code/docs/**
> [43]
>
> https://svn.gluu.info/repository/openxdi/code/docs/oxPlus/seedOverview.ppt
> [44] mailto:drummond.reed@xdi.org
> [45] http://www.bitworld.us/index.**php?page=pda
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--
Cameron Hunt
Director, bitWorld
843.654.4708