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Subject: Re: [xliff] RE: Reference Language <was: [xliff] 1.2 to 2.0 Gaps and Proposals>


Everyone, there were no comments on this one for some time.
Can we assume consensus and change the spec accordingly?
Summary:
Reference language was approved as an additional feature for the matches module by a TC ballot.
In this thread stakeholders have agreed that source will be mandatory also for reference matches
Matches will remain the same structurally but will be able to carry matches with a third target language if marked by the optional reference flag.

Thanks
dF

Dr. David Filip
=======================
LRC | CNGL | LT-Web | CSIS
University of Limerick, Ireland
telephone: +353-6120-2781
cellphone: +353-86-0222-158
facsimile: +353-6120-2734
mailto: david.filip@ul.ie



On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 11:59 PM, Dr. David Filip <David.Filip@ul.ie> wrote:
Thanks Ryan, I am OK with the whole proposal now.
Cheers
dF

Dr. David Filip
=======================
LRC | CNGL | LT-Web | CSIS
University of Limerick, Ireland
telephone: +353-6120-2781
cellphone: +353-86-0222-158
facsimile: +353-6120-2734



On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Ryan King <ryanki@microsoft.com> wrote:

Thanks David for the clarifications. I agree there is no need to have more than one <matches> module then as long as the following is allowed:

 

<unit id="1">

  <segment>

    <source>hello world</source>

  </segment>

  <mtc:matches>

    <mtc:match>

      <segment>

        <source xml:lang=”en-us”>hello world</source>

        <target xml:lang=”ca-es”>hola món</target>

      </segment>

    </mtc:match>

   <mtc:match reference=”yes”>

     <segment>

       <source xml:lang=”en-us”>hello world</target>

       <target xml:lang=”es-es”>hola mundo</target>

     </segment>

   </mtc:match>

 </mtc:matches> 

</unit>  

 

As for process requirements, it states this for <target> in the core spec:

 

·         When a <target> element is a child of <segment> or <ignorable> and the optional xml:lang attribute is present, its value must be equal to the value of the tgtLang attribute of the enclosing <xliff> element.

 

My comment on a needed processing requirement was to override this for <mtc:matches>. E.g.

 

·         When a <target> element is a child of <segment> contained in an <mtc:match> element whose reference attribute is set to “yes”, and the optional xml:lang attribute is present, its value is not required to be equal to the value of the tgtLang attribute of the enclosing <xliff> element.

 

Thanks,

ryan

 

 

From: Dr. David Filip [mailto:David.Filip@ul.ie]
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 1:11 PM
To: Ryan King
Cc: Yves Savourel; xliff@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: Reference Language <was: [xliff] 1.2 to 2.0 Gaps and Proposals>

 

Ryan, all

 

I do support reference matches in matches module. It [the whole module] will however need more PRs than just saying that th ereference can be in a different language, which is even NOT a PR :-)

 

Provided that source remains obligatory as so far..

+---<match> +

    |                

    +---<xlf:source> 1

    |                           

    +---<xlf:target> 1

    |                

 

It was possible upfront to have + = one or more matches in <matches>

<matches> 1

+---<match> +

    |         

 

Or do you mean something else? I do not think that the top element should be duplicated, you can mix reference and leverage matches in one IMHO, what would be the advantage of having more top level elements?

 

Cheers

dF

 


Dr. David Filip

=======================

LRC | CNGL | LT-Web | CSIS

University of Limerick, Ireland

telephone: +353-6120-2781

cellphone: +353-86-0222-158

facsimile: +353-6120-2734



On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 8:08 PM, Ryan King <ryanki@microsoft.com> wrote:

Do we have consensus on this proposal? E.g. Add an optional attribute reference=”yes|no” with no as default. PR for a “reference match” would be to allow an xml:lang on the target different from the document. Additionally, we’d need to allow more than one <mtc:matches> where we currently only allow one sine we could have both recycling and reference language present at the same time.

 

<mtc:matches>

  <mtc:match reference=”yes”>

   <segment>

    <source xml:lang=”en-us”>hello world</target>

    <target xml:lang=”es-es”>hola mundo</target>

   </segment>

  </mtc:match>

</match>    

 

Thanks,

ryan 

 

From: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:xliff@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf Of Ryan King
Sent: Monday, December 3, 2012 11:46 AM
To: Dr. David Filip; Yves Savourel
Cc: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [xliff] 1.2 to 2.0 Gaps and Proposals

 

Sounds good. Let’s keep source in Reference Language.

 

From: Dr. David Filip [mailto:David.Filip@ul.ie]
Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2012 11:17 AM
To: Yves Savourel
Cc: Ryan King; xliff@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [xliff] 1.2 to 2.0 Gaps and Proposals

 

Yves, Ryan,

 

the source should be required in all matches, reference or not. This was one very specific piece of feedback from the toolmakers on the 2nd XLIFF Symposium in Warsaw. SDL, Kilgray, Atril, and more agreed on that having no source in alt-trans complicated the processing unnecessarily and said that they would provide better support to an XLIFF local matching mechanism if it had mandatory source. We should honot this wish in the matches module IMHO

 

So it might seem as redundancy but actually is not so bad and explicitly supported by the voice of an important constituency..

 

Cheers

dF 

 

 


Dr. David Filip

=======================

LRC | CNGL | LT-Web | CSIS

University of Limerick, Ireland

telephone: +353-6120-2781

cellphone: +353-86-0222-158

facsimile: +353-6120-2734

 

On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 3:47 AM, Yves Savourel <ysavourel@enlaso.com> wrote:

Hi Ryan, all,

Sorry for the delay: I'm just swamped and can't find the time to read emails anymore.


> 1. Be able to specify optional custom values
> for match type in <mtc:matches>

I suppose some mechanism similar to the subType we're using in inline codes and other places could allow for custom values while making sure a top-level category is also declared.

Since we are discussing values for match type: I'm still not convinced that the latest list makes sense:

am - Assembled Match
ebm - Example-based Machine Translation
idm - ID-based Match
ice - In-Context Exact Match
mt - Machine Translation
tm - Translation Memory Match

- 'Example-based Machine Translation' should not be there IMO: it's just MT, what type of MT is not relevant (but could be a candidate for the subtype)
- 'In-Context Exact Match' IMO should be 'in-context' only: the fact that's an exact one is captured in the similarity (and it could be an in-context fuzzy too).



> 2. Support Reference Language in <mtc:matches>
> • Allow zero, one or more <mtc:matches> at each extension point, because
> you might have both recycling and reference language data.

I assume you mean: allow more than one <mtc:matches> where we currently allow one? Not in *all* extensions point. right?


> • Add an optional attribute reference=”yes|no” with no as default.

> Additionally, PR for a “reference match” would be to allow an xml:lang on the target
> different from the document and allow the <source> not to be present
> as it would be redundant information with the core <source>, e.g. Spanish
> reference for Quechua might look like this:

- reference='yes\no' and allowing a different language for xml:lang in those with reference='yes' seems ok to me.
- source not being present... I don't know. If we do that for those 'matches' why not for the normalmatches as well? If the source is the same.
I think we mandated the source originally that's to simplify processing: testing for the presence of not of the source may be cumbersome for some processors (XSLT maybe?).

We would need to update the definition of what a "match" is as well.

hope this helps,
-ys




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