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Subject: RE: [xliff] proposed solutions for CSPRD 138 (Unique Particle Attribution) - validation


Hi Yves, all,

I think the modules and extensions should go before the <unit> and <group> elements on all levels. It would be consistent and it would allow stream processing of <unit>s regardless of how the grouping around them looks. If they should go before skeleton / notes I don't have any opinion on.

Regards,
Fredrik Estreen

> -----Original Message-----
> From: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:xliff@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf
> Of Yves Savourel
> Sent: den 6 december 2013 13:47
> To: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [xliff] proposed solutions for CSPRD 138 (Unique Particle
> Attribution) - validation
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I don't think we decided where to place the re-grouped modules/extension.
> 
> Here is the current status:
> 
> File:
> - modules are between optional <skeleton>/<notes> and <unit>/<group>
> - extensions are after the <unit>/<group>
> -> should we put the re-grouped modules/extensions before or after the
> core elements?
> 
> Group:
> - all after the core elements
> 
> Unit:
> - all after the core elements
> 
> Thanks,
> -yves
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Comerford [mailto:tom@supratext.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2013 1:34 PM
> To: Yves Savourel; xliff@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [xliff] proposed solutions for CSPRD 138 (Unique Particle
> Attribution) - validation
> 
> Thanks, Yves. I haven't had much reason to deal with the particular use case,
> but it's good to know the authoritative answer. It seems some less-formal
> sources of information out there aren't so reliable. Imagine that.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yves Savourel [mailto:ysavourel@enlaso.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 02:25 PM
> To: 'Tom Comerford'; xliff@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [xliff] proposed solutions for CSPRD 138 (Unique Particle
> Attribution) - validation
> 
> Hi Tom, all,
> 
> I've brought the issue to Felix Sasaki a W3C resource quite familiar with XML
> and schema.
> He pointed out that the XSD specification seems to indicate this behavior.
> 
> [[
> I think the issue is that the "lax" option is not defined on a "per schema"
> basis but on a "per declaration" basis. See from
> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#Wildcard_details
> 
> "lax: If the item has a uniquely determined declaration available, it must be
> .valid. with respect to that definition, that is, .validate.
> if you can, don't worry if you can't."
> 
> That is, since the validator does not find a declaration for "fs:wrong" in the
> schema, it just skips validation.
> 
> I assume what you want is: "if in a target namespace no declaration is given,
> give me an error". The only way I can see this happen is NVDL.
> ]]
> 
> In other words (if I get it right): lax validates only things for which it finds a
> valid definition. Which, in my opinion, is a bit
> dumb: If it's marked up as part of a namespace but no definition for it exist in
> that namespace the logical thing to do should be to throw an error.
> But I guess that's not how lax is defined.
> 
> So I think that path is pretty much close.
> 
> I've tried the testing with NVDL and it works fine. The problem for NVDL is
> that it can't directly test for locations: we can check that fs:fs="bad" and
> fs:wrong="value" are both bad, but we can't test hwre they are allowed to
> appear. For that we would need an extra part: a set of Schematron rules.
> It's doable, but probably not in a short timespan. And there is still all the
> constraints and PRs we simply can't test with schema or even Schematron.
> 
> So at this point, it seems we could move forward with removing the modules
> references from the core, make sure each schema is independent as much
> as possible. Validating a file against those will catch already many issues, and
> we can code the rest along with the non-schema validation.
> 
> Cheers,
> -yves
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Comerford [mailto:tom@supratext.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 1:32 PM
> To: Yves Savourel; xliff@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [xliff] proposed solutions for CSPRD 138 (Unique Particle
> Attribution) - validation
> 
> Yves,
> 
> This seems to contradict the XSD specification. With anyAttribute set to "lax",
> a bad attribute should throw an error when a schema for the containing
> namespace has been found. But as you note, it doesn't.
> 
> The common interpretation of "lax" is that it throws no error when the
> schema for the namespace is not found, nor when the schema is found but a
> definition of the attribute is not part of that schema. It seems to be
> commonly accepted (and commonly implemented, as you've seen). If
> anyone knows where that detail is hidden in the W3C spec for XSD, I'd like to
> know.
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:xliff@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf
> Of Yves Savourel
> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2013 02:49 PM
> To: xliff@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [xliff] proposed solutions for CSPRD 138 (Unique Particle
> Attribution) - validation
> 
> More on this attribute validation issue:
> 
> If I use <xs:anyAttribute namespace="##any" processContents="strict"/>
> the bad attribute fs:badAttr is correctly seen as a bad attribute. If I use 'lax"
> no error is reported.
> 
> I don't understand why: the definition for "lax" is suppose to be "The XML
> processor attempts to obtain the schema for the required namespaces and
> validate any attribute from those namespaces; however, if the schema
> cannot be obtained, no errors will occur."
> 
> But this is behaving like if the validators cannot find the schema if the name
> of the attribute is incorrect.
> 
> BTW: I've also checked that the problem is not coming from my validator: I
> get the same behavior in Oxygen when providing the two same schemas
> with xsi:schemaLocation.
> 
> I'm baffled. Any pointer would be helpful.
> -yves
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yves Savourel [mailto:ysavourel@enlaso.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:56 AM
> To: 'xliff@lists.oasis-open.org'
> Subject: RE: [xliff] proposed solutions for CSPRD 138 (Unique Particle
> Attribution)
> 
> Hi Tom and other schema experts,
> 
> 
> I'm trying to implement the validation using a core schema without
> reference. And I run into a strange issue for FS:
> 
> - the core schema has no reference to FS, just (for example in the <pc>
> element):
> 
> <xs:anyAttribute namespace="##any" processContents="lax"/>
> 
> I load the core and FS schema in the validator and it looks like the FS schema
> is used as if I do:
> 
> <pc id='1' fs:fs="bad"> I get the expected error about the invalid value.
> 
> However if I do:
> 
> <pc id='1' fs:badAtt='val'> I don't get an error, while badAttr is not specified
> in the FS schema.
> 
> Any ideas?
> -yves
> 
> 
> 
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