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Subject: RE: [xri-comment] XRD <uri> vs. Link: anchor=


All links have a human-readable title so I am not sure why this feature is so surprising. Both HTML and ATOM have titles with the exact same use case - expressing to a human user what the links are for, their properties, and how they might be used. In hyperlinks, the title is the marked text - we don't show the user the machine-URL but instead give them human-readable context.

The title is used to express information that is only useful by a person. For example, I can list multiple social networks but provide commentary on which one is appropriate for what purpose. It is the kind of information that is only useful to a person, not machine. Another example is the one mentioned by Drummond, where XRD owners can assign descriptions to their endpoint for the purpose or maintaining them. Every use case which involves presenting XRD information to a person requires this.

EHL



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Atkins [mailto:mart@degeneration.co.uk]
> Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2009 4:36 PM
> Cc: xri-comment@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: Re: [xri-comment] XRD <uri> vs. Link: anchor=
> 
> 
> Agreed. It's not clear to me what this title is expected to be used for.
> Are there any actual use-cases for it?
> 
> The really generic name it has makes me think that it's been thrown in just
> because it felt like there should be a human-readable description
> somewhere, but it seems better to me to actually think about what it's for an
> actually name the element after that, or if it's not really for anything then
> remove it entirely.
> 
> Santosh Rajan wrote:
> > Yes indeed, maybe I am missing the point. Unfortunately there are a
> > few things an ordinary developer like me cannot fathom and hence I
> > will appreciate if you will explain it to me.
> >
> > 1) Who are the humans who are going to read the XRD?
> > 2) The only humans I can think of, are the developers. And only when
> > either, they are writing the XRD, or when they are debugging the XRD.
> > 3) Personally as a developer I would really only be concerned by the "Rel"
> > values of the links. And language does not matter to me here.
> > 4) And if as a developer, I would like to convey some human readable
> > information to fellow developers, XML provides a "Comment" tag, which
> > does not restrict me only to the title element. Using comments I can
> > convey any information in any language for every element in the file.
> >
> > This whole "title thing" looks like a "solution looking for a problem"
> > rather than a "problem looking for a solution".
> >
> > Can you please give us a good argument why you need multiple titles in
> > multiple languages?
> >
> > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Drummond Reed
> > <drummond.reed@cordance.net>wrote:
> >
> >> Santosh, I think you're missing the point. Titles are for human
> >> consumption. Humans speak more than one language. So if you want an
> >> XRD editor to be able to display the title for an XRD link to a human
> >> in more than one human language (English, French, Arabic, Greek,
> >> etc.), then you need multiple <Title> elements:
> >>
> >> <Link rel="http://example.com/example-rel"; href="
> >> http://example.com/example-uri";>
> >>    <Title xml:lang="en">Example Title in English</Title>
> >>    <Title xml:lang="fr">Titre d'exemple en franšais</Title> </Link>
> >>
> >> =Drummond
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 7:49 PM, Santosh Rajan
> <santrajan@gmail.com>wrote:
> >>
> >>> Ok I will rephrase the questions. Why would a machine readable
> >>> format for machine based information, require more than one language
> >>> in its link element title? Any specific use case you have come across?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 12:57 AM, Eran Hammer-Lahav
> <eran@hueniverse.com>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Re #1: not if we want it to express multiple titles, each with a
> >>>> different language.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I could not figure out what you were trying to say with the rest of
> >>>> your points.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> EHL
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> *From:* Santosh Rajan [mailto:santrajan@gmail.com]
> >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, December 12, 2009 7:06 AM
> >>>> *To:* xri-comment@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>>>
> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [xri-comment] XRD <uri> vs. Link: anchor=
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Right. In that case it would be better for XRD to specify a new
> >>>> separate field for language instead of multiple titles. And titles
> >>>> are generally considered as cardinality 0 or 1.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) Can't the XRD specify a language field and avoid multiple titles?
> >>>>
> >>>> 2) Since when, machine readable formats, and machine based
> >>>> information, cannot figure out a language, if it weren't clearly
> specified?
> >>>>
> >>>> 3) So you are saying XRD speaks "machine language"?, XRD can't
> >>>> understand any other machine language other than your own? Are we
> >>>> going back to the stone age here?
> >>>>
> >>>> - Hide quoted text -
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:02 AM, Eran Hammer-Lahav
> >>>> <eran@hueniverse.com
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>> Regarding point #2, title is left as an element because there is a
> >>>> fundamental difference between XRD and ATOM/HTML. XRD does not
> have
> >>>> a language context since it is a machine readable format for
> >>>> machine-based information. ATOM and HTML almost always have a
> >>>> specific context language and almost always one. This means in XRD
> >>>> we need to allow multiple titles with different languages for each
> >>>> link. You can't do that easily using attributes.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> EHL
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> *From:* Santosh Rajan [mailto:santrajan@gmail.com]
> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 10, 2009 7:15 AM
> >>>> *To:* Jonathan Rees
> >>>> *Cc:* xri-comment@lists.oasis-open.org; Eran Hammer-Lahav; Mark
> >>>> Nottingham; Ben Adida; openid-general@lists.openid.net
> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [xri-comment] XRD <uri> vs. Link: anchor=
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Jonathan,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> This is only the least of the problems with XRD. As far as the "link"
> >>>> element is concerned. Here are a few points I have to make. Please
> >>>> have a look at this post first of all.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> http://hueniverse.com/2009/11/xrd-alignment-with-link-syntax/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) The XRD "Link" element today looks exactly like the Atom "link"
> >>>> element.
> >>>>
> >>>> 2) Except for one difference. The "Title" element. The XRD Title
> >>>> element is not an attribute in a Link element, its an element on
> >>>> its own right, with the value being the title value.
> >>>>
> >>>> 3) This is ridiculous. They have not given a good argument for
> >>>> having a title element inside the link, instead of an attribute.
> >>>>
> >>>> 4) And here is another very unscientific argument. The "link"
> >>>> element looks very beautiful with all values described as
> >>>> attributes. Putting any value, inside an element, inside a link
> >>>> element makes it look positively ugly.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Of cource my argument can always be brushed aside as coming from a
> >>>> "crazy" as was posted here in this link.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/xri/200911/msg00039.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Jonathan Rees
> >>>> <jar@creativecommons.org>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> [ bcc: www-tag  for the TAG's information.  To broaden the
> >>>> discussion beyond XRD change the cc: list as appropriate. ]
> >>>>
> >>>> XRD <uri> seems to do exactly what the Link: header's anchor=
> >>>> parameter does [1]. It would be nice if the two used the same token
> >>>> to communicate this function.  As <uri> is not descriptive of the
> >>>> role played by the URI, I recommend updating XRD to match Link:, by
> >>>> renaming the <uri> element (or attribute, should you go that route)
> >>>> to be <anchor>.
> >>>>
> >>>> Jonathan
> >>>>
> >>>> [1]
> >>>> http://www.mnot.net/drafts/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-
> 07.txt
> >>>>
> >>>> (p.s. I wonder if HTML5's <link> element should have an 'anchor'
> >>>> attribute, for symmetry ...)
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> This publicly archived list offers a means to provide input to the
> >>>> OASIS Extensible Resource Identifier (XRI) TC.
> >>>>
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> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> http://hi.im/santosh
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> http://hi.im/santosh
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> http://hi.im/santosh
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> 
> 
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> 
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