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Subject: RE: [xri] Use of the word "synonym" in section 10


Les,

 

I’ll shorten the discussion. Hopefully it will find its asymptote soon.

 

You said:

> I agree that is your definition of the word synonym … actually you call it polyarchical synonym. 

 

I called it that in that article, but note that do not call it that in my proposed text for section 11.

 

> I don’t think =steven.churchill and @ootao*steven are synonyms.  One refers to the other.  And I don’t think they should have the same CID. 

 

=steven.churchill (=!C5FB.53B6.6E94.824) and @oota*steven (@!5BAD.2AA.3C72.AF46!0000.0000.3B9A.CA16)  do not have the same CID in real life, and never will unless you run your own @ and = name spaces.   And even if you do run your own = and @ names spaces how can they have the same CID.  We still state that CID needs to be fully qualified based on the parent, don’t we?

 

=steven.churchill (=!C5FB.53B6.6E94.824) and @oota*steven (@!5BAD.2AA.3C72.AF46!0000.0000.3B9A.CA16)  do not have the same CID in real life, and never will unless you run your own @ and = name spaces.  

 


From: Chasen, Les [mailto:les.chasen@neustar.biz]
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 7:19 PM
To: Steven Churchill
Cc: xri@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [xri] Use of the word "synonym" in section 10

 


From: Steven Churchill [mailto:steven.churchill@xdi.org]
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:52 PM
To: Chasen, Les
Cc: xri@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [xri] Use of the word "synonym" in section 10

 

 

Les,

 

At some point it will be time to give this discussion up. I don’t think we are quite there yet.

[Chasen, Les] L

 

> I don’t know how else to say it … in my mind a synonym is simply those XRI’s

> that resolve to the same XRD or if you want the same CID(s).  I say CIDs

> because it is possible to have more than one persistent identifier that are synonymous. 

 

So, two XRIs are synonymous [with respect to resolver input parameters?] if they resolve to the same set of CIDs. Again, this is a fine model.

[Chasen, Les] Yes.  Input parameters should not play a role in this definition.

 

Would you agree that a second (and also equally valid) model of synonymity is that two XRIs are synonymous (with respect to resolver input parameters) if they resolve to the same set of highest priority CIDs under Canonical ID verification?

[Chasen, Les] I agree this is another model … I don’t agree with it though.  1. I don’t think this definition should be respective of input parameters and two I don’t agree with the term highest priority CID.  If there are two CIDs in an XRD and one iname then all three are synonymous irrespective of the highest priority.

 

Your statement, “In my mind a synonym is …” is really another way of saying “under this model, a synonym is …”.

I am just reinforcing [well, repeating] my point here: synonymity as a concept does not exist outside the model. It should not be used within the XRI specification outside of the model’s definition of identity.

[Chasen, Les] OK

 

> =les and =les.chasen and =!3697.D141.3C5E.742F are synonyms because they all

> resolve to the same XRD. (http://xri.net/=les?_xrd_r=application/xrds%2bxml).   

> That is the model I work with.  Granted my model maybe slanted by the world I deal with every day. 

 

Again, unless we want to define the word “synonym” in the spec to apply only under this model, then let’s not use it.

[Chasen, Les] I don’t know how this started but this thread is about the definition of the word synonym.  This is my view.

 

> This XRD has a REF in it but I don’t think that is a synonym.  It is just a reference to another authority. 

Agreed.

[Chasen, Les] This is something J

 

> I don’t believe input parameters should play a role in this definition.  Input parameters
> adjust behavior of a resolver to give a client a specific response.  The model or definition

> should deal with the data … with out processing it.

 

Do you not agree that the XRIs =steven.churchill and @ootao*steven are synonyms (under the Canonical ID verification model) under one set of input parameters and not synonyms under another? (I think that is made pretty clear at http://dev.inames.net/wiki/XRI_CanonicalID_Verification.)

[Chasen, Les] I agree that is your definition of the word synonym … actually you call it polyarchical synonym.  I don’t think =steven.churchill and @ootao*steven are synonyms.  One refers to the other.  And I don’t think they should have the same CID.  =steven.churchill (=!C5FB.53B6.6E94.824) and @oota*steven (@!5BAD.2AA.3C72.AF46!0000.0000.3B9A.CA16)  do not have the same CID in real life, and never will unless you run your own @ and = name spaces.   And even if you do run your own = and @ names spaces how can they have the same CID.  We still state that CID needs to be fully qualified based on the parent, don’t we?

 

I don’t have issues with your CID verification model .. .i like it.  I think our only difference is terminology.  Sans the ‘highest priority’ stuff which makes me a little uncomfortable.

 

 

> I would not call =steven.churchill and @ootao*steven polyarchical synonyms … maybe

> polyarchical references or just references but not synonyms.


That is a funny thing to say. These are both XRI identifiers that resolve (under a given set of input parameters) to an XRD containing the same set of CaonicalDs. Was that not your definition of synonymity above?

[Chasen, Les] No.  see above.

 

> Put simply the iname and cid are the identifiers.  If two or more of them exist in one authority they are synonymous.   

 

I think you are now trying to create yet another definition of synonymity.

[Chasen, Les] no .. I am saying exactly the same thing I said above.

 

> Again .. this is just my opinion.  I do not care enough to debate it endlessly.

 

Nor do I, but I’m not about to sit back (especially at this point so late in the game) and ignore the statements I see being made without rebuttal.

[Chasen, Les] I am not seeing that we differ very much.  You seem to be saying that we need to have a definition that allows for a polyarchical relationship.  I am in full support of allowing a polyarchical relationship through ref processing.  I just rather not call that relationship synonymous … but I can live with it.

 

~ Steve

 

 

 

 


From: Steven Churchill [mailto:steven.churchill@xdi.org]
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 7:41 PM
To: Chasen, Les
Cc: xri@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [xri] Use of the word "synonym" in section 10

 

Les,

 

In addition, your two definitions of synonymity below have both left out completely the specification of whether your identifiers are only synonyms with respect to a given set of resolver input parameters.


Take a look at two tables at http://dev.inames.net/wiki/XRI_CanonicalID_Verification. This illustrates that identifiers can be synonymous with respect to one set of input parameters while not being synonymous with respect to another set of input parameters.

 

~ Steve

 

 

 


From: Steven Churchill [mailto:steven.churchill@xdi.org]
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 4:34 PM
To: 'Chasen, Les'
Cc: xri@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [xri] Use of the word "synonym" in section 10

 

Les,

 

I have to apologize for not letting go on this. (“Letting go” on stuff like this is the primary reason this TC can be far along in its process without having a clear agreement and understanding of what constitutes the notions of identifiers, synonymity and identity.)

 

You said:

 

> Synonyms are to mean things that are the same identity.  Today

> http://xri.net/=les and http://xri.net/=les.chasen and http://xri.net/=!3697.D141.3C5E.742F

> are synonyms because they are all the same identity and produce the same XRD

> except for those variable tags like query.

 

I must restate my point. (At least I am consistent): The statement that these identifiers are  “synonyms because they are all the same identity” is meaningless outside a model defining of what constitutes identity. If you want to define a model that says that “XRI identifiers are synonymous [perhaps with respect to resolver input parameters?] because XRI resolution produces the same XRD except for those variable tags like query”, then that is a perfectly fine model and definition for synonymity. Note, however, that hat it is a different model altogether from the three models presented in my email to Markus. That is, that the above XRIs are not synonyms under any of those models!

 

To summarize and repeat myself: identifiers cannot be called synonyms outside of a model that establishes the meaning of synonymity.

 

>  I feel I am simplifying to a very straight forward model.   All XRIs that *are* the same identity are synonymous.   You know this because they resolve to the same CID(s).  

 

But you said above that they are synonyms because “produce the same XRD except for those variable tags like query.” So now you are suggesting a second model for synonymity and identity. You cannot have it both ways.

 

Yet another model is that they are only synonyms if the XRDs pass canonical ID verification. So again, we have three different models. Certainly you are not proposing that the above XRIs are synonyms under all three models.

 

 

~ Steve

 

 


From: Chasen, Les [mailto:les.chasen@neustar.biz]
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 2:30 PM
To: Steven Churchill
Cc: xri@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [xri] Use of the word "synonym" in section 10

 


From: Steven Churchill [mailto:steven.churchill@xdi.org]
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 4:39 PM
To: Chasen, Les
Cc: xri@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [xri] Use of the word "synonym" in section 10

 

 

Les,

 

Yes we agree that the term in used too often. In my view, I’m trying to eliminate it its use outside of model that clearly establishes its definition.

 

And thus I find myself needing to be somewhat pedantic in my response.

 

> from your examples, IMHO =steve.churchill and =steven.churchill and the CID

> that goes with it are synonymous because they are the same identity. 

 

These identifiers cannot be synonymous outside of a model constituting the definition of synonymity and identity. For example, three separate models were presented in my previous email to Markus. The identifiers above may be synonyms in all, some, or none of these models. So I disagree with you saying that “they are synonymous”. This has no meaning to me outside you first establishing the model.

[Chasen, Les]

[Chasen, Les] I am not disagreeing with you on the need for a model.  I laid out my view.

 

> @ootao*steve is a reference that may be the same person but no one can know that

> for sure except you.  It is just a reference between two authorities.

> I don’t really care if you want to call a reference a synonym I just find that that term is used to often.

 

In none of my examples did I say that @ootao*steve was contained in the value of an xrd:Ref. If I we’re to establish a reference to @ootao*steve, I would probably opt to use its CID in the xrd:Ref element anyway.  

 

I think that what you are getting at here is that the value contained in a Ref element could be thought of as a “synonym” under some particular model of synonymity. Perhaps so, but if that is how the Resolution Spec decides to employ the term, well, then that is quite unfortunate, because it prevents or greatly discourages using the term where it actually provides some real value (such as within the context of describing the Canonical ID Verification model.)

[Chasen, Les]

[Chasen, Les] I am saying the value in a Ref is *not* a synonym.  That is however what I thought you said.  I think it is a reference nothing more and nothing less.  Synonyms are to mean things that are the same identity.  Today http://xri.net/=les and http://xri.net/=les.chasen and http://xri.net/=!3697.D141.3C5E.742F are synonyms because they are all the same identity and produce the same XRD except for those variable tags like query.

 

 

In the context that you suggest (and which the Resolution Spec currently employs), the term only serves to confuse.

[Chasen, Les]

[Chasen, Les] I feel I am simplifying to a very straight forward model.   All XRIs that *are* the same identity are synonymous.   You know this because they resolve to the same CID(s).  But you seem to think this view has no practical value.

 

~ Steve

 

 

 


From: Steven Churchill [mailto:steven.churchill@xdi.org]
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 3:42 PM
To: Chasen, Les
Cc: xri@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [xri] Use of the word "synonym" in section 10

 

Les,

 

> I agree.  I think the word ‘synonym’ has been overused.  IMHO, It should be reserved

> for inames and inumbers that are in the same XRD.

 

I think that you are saying that a value of a CanonicalID is synonymous with the value of LocalID is synonymous with the value of a Ref is synonymous with the value of a Query given that the values show up in the same XRD.

 

This definition of “synonym” has no practical value that I can see. On the other hand, the property of XRI identifier synonymity is one of XRI Resolution’s most valuable features. I would hate to “lose” the use of the term by associating it with your meaning above.

 

~ Steve

 

 

 


From: markus.sabadello@gmail.com [mailto:markus.sabadello@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Markus Sabadello
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:15 AM
To: Steven Churchill
Cc: xri@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [xri] Use of the word "synonym" in section 10

 


I know it's more complicated than that: But from my naive point of view two XRI identifiers are synonyms if for all possible input parameters they return the same SEP(s).

Markus

On 6/8/07, Steven Churchill <steven.churchill@xdi.org> wrote:

Drummond,

 

I don't understand the use of the term "synonym" in section 10.

 

In English, if two words are synonyms, then they have the same (or roughly the same) meaning. In the Identify field, if two identifiers are synonyms, then they refer to the same identity.

 

As I try to express in my text for section 11, these concepts are dependent upon the "model" (or "system") defining the notions of synonymity and identity. In a Banking system, identifiers may include a person's name(s) and account number. In that same model, identity may be defined as "the human being person having a given SSN and DOB". (Don't get confused by the fact that a SSN is also a type of identifier. That is incidental to the model. We are talking here about establishing the definition of identity. Once that is done, then Steven Churchill and Steve Churchill can be synonymous identifiers for the same identity.) In the XRI Canonical ID Verification model, there is a clear notion of synonymity and absolute identity. In any case, the model needs to be formally defined before we can start referring to this thing or that thing as a being a synonym. A synonym to what?

 

Section 10 introduces the term synonym without establishing a model that defines either synonymity or identity. As Gabe and others have correctly pointed out, XRI supports many such models. What are synonyms within one model are not necessarily synonyms within another model.

 

It is not helpful to use the term synonym outside a model defining how two identifiers get mapped to the same identity.

 

~ Steve

 

 




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