Re: [ebsoa] Process-Oriented Architectures (POA)

["David RR Webber" <david@drrw.info>]

Joe,

This seems to be a very limited view of SOA as just
messaging middleware and nothing else.

Now while some vendors may want to sell that -
because that is all they have in their implementation
stack - I've always viewed SOA as containing the
means to direct and manage message interactions -
and whether you call that workflow, message flow
or process flow - its definately all part of the BPM
box IMHO.

And - critically - as soon as you apply collaboration
profiles to the messaging arena - you have to have
some kind of collaboration description - to make
agreement to - and to have the software check
compliance with - manage state of - direct
requests and responses - this all requires knowledge
of the BPM steps and definition.

The separation into layers as you describe is the diagram
#18  from the PPT - but just because you have these
layers does NOT mean that the BPM is not an
intrinsic part of the SOA.  The layer metaphor is
just a convenience to aid understanding for humans.

Like explaining to your Grandma how the steering
wheel directs the wheels of the car - but the steering
wheel is inside the car in reality - not sticking out from the
roof!!

So products like BEA, iWay, MQSeries et al
all have the process control stuff deeply embedded
into the menus and setup of the messaging not to
mention the inner working of the messaging engine
itself already.

DW.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
To: "David RR Webber" <david@drrw.info>
Cc: "ebSOA" <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>; "Monica J. Martin"
<monica.martin@sun.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [ebsoa] Process-Oriented Architectures (POA)


> David,
>
> I am going to respectfully disagree with you here, mostly because I am
> looking at SOAs not only within the ebXML framework, but outside as well
> (that is my job given my position as a consultant to the US federal
> government). I assert that SOAs *support* the business process layer,
> and that the business process layer therefore resides on top of the
> services layer (at least in my view of "the stack"). So I don't advocate
> removing anything "from where it's been all along" - in my estimation,
> the business process layer has not ever been part of the services layer,
> but is rather supported by it.
>
> Of course, I could be persuaded otherwise as our work progresses - I
> always keep an open mind.
>
> Thanks for your excellent feedback.
>
> Joe
>
> David RR Webber wrote:
> >
> > Joe,
> >
> > The direct answer is - of course BPM is part of the stack - are
> > you proposing we REMOVE it from where its been all along?!?
> >
> > Is someone building cars without steering wheels yet?!?  Is
> > anyone buying them?
> >
> > See ebXML architecture for starters - and then both JJ and my
> > articles on SOA at ebXMLforum.com - with appropriate
> > diagrams - not to mention slide #26 from presentation here:
> >
> >  http://drrw.net/presentations/ebXML%20Today%20-%20March%2004.zip
> >
> > Cheers, DW.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
> > To: "David RR Webber" <david@drrw.info>
> > Cc: "ebSOA" <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>; "Monica J. Martin"
> > <monica.martin@sun.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ebsoa] Process-Oriented Architectures (POA)
> >
> > > Hmmm...I think I missed a direct answer to my question in all of this.
> > > ;)
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > > David RR Webber wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Joe,
> > > >
> > > > I just telegraphed the British Embassy and Prince Charles
> > > > is going to have a word with his mother for us.
> > > >
> > > > Nice to have this hot line.  Clearly will greatly help us
> > > > fend off imposters and claimants trying to usurp our
> > > > position as the authorities on ebSOA.
> > > >
> > > > You may also want to check out JJs article
> > > > at http://www.ebXMLforum.com  where he diagrams same.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers, DW.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
> > > > To: "David RR Webber" <david@drrw.info>
> > > > Cc: "ebSOA" <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>; "Monica J. Martin"
> > > > <monica.martin@sun.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:21 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [ebsoa] Process-Oriented Architectures (POA)
> > > >
> > > > > David RR Webber wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Joe,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I humbly submit this is a redherring.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Service Oriented IMHO already implies Process by extension  -
since
> > > > > > behind the delivery of any service there must be a process
> > > > > > controlling and facilitating it.   Tha'ts why BPSS and BPEL are
part
> > > > > > of the SOA stack.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks David - but according to whom are they part of the SOA
stack?
> > > > >
> > > > > Joe
> > > > >
> > > > > > We need another acronym like a hole in the head - let's leave
that
> > > > > > stuff to the professionals at Gartner to dream up, eh?  ; -)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers, DW.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
> > > > > > To: "ebSOA" <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > > > > > Cc: "Monica J. Martin" <monica.martin@sun.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 9:30 AM
> > > > > > Subject: [ebsoa] Process-Oriented Architectures (POA)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I know that our concentration is to be service-oriented
> > architectures,
> > > > > > > but at the same time I'm thinking about what will lie beyond
(so
> > that
> > > > we
> > > > > > > can best prepare). A term popped into my head on the way home
> > > > yesterday
> > > > > > > (the DC Beltway apparatentely inspires me): Process-Oriented
> > > > > > > Architecture, or "POA".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Has anyone heard this term used before? I Google'd it and
found
> > few
> > > > > > > hits, all of which seemed to be individual (rather than
corporate)
> > > > > > > references.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As you can tell from the term, just as SOAs enable (involve,
pick
> > your
> > > > > > > favorite word here) the use of shared services, POAs will
extend
> > SOAs
> > > > to
> > > > > > > enable the use of shared Web Services-based processes that are
> > based
> > > > on
> > > > > > > shared Web Services that are defined within SOAs, working in
> > concert
> > > > > > > with each other. So for a US federal application (my primary
> > client),
> > > > > > > this could mean a set of shared Web Services-based business
> > processes
> > > > > > > for federal agencies, in a flexible, agile, process
environment.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Does this concept resound with anyone?
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Kind Regards,
> > > > > > > Joseph Chiusano
> > > > > > > Associate
> > > > > > > Booz | Allen | Hamilton
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Kind Regards,
> > > > > Joseph Chiusano
> > > > > Associate
> > > > > Booz | Allen | Hamilton
> > > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Kind Regards,
> > > Joseph Chiusano
> > > Associate
> > > Booz | Allen | Hamilton
> > >
>
> -- 
> Kind Regards,
> Joseph Chiusano
> Associate
> Booz | Allen | Hamilton
>