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Subject: Re: [ebsoa] Scope of TC (was SOA and Shared Semantics / Editors ActionItem, et al)
Matt, You're right - I need a cold beer! I'm just sore I'm not making all the big $$$'s like those Gartner types can ; -) DW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> To: "'ebSOA'" <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org> Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [ebsoa] Scope of TC (was SOA and Shared Semantics / Editors ActionItem, et al) > Sorry Matt, you're right - but it's just the July heat. :) > > Matthew MacKenzie wrote: > > > > I agree that we want to be wary of the analyst camp, but this thread is getting combative. Guys, please simmer down. > > > > Thanks, > > -Matt > > On Jul 7, 2004, at 12:12 PM, David RR Webber wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > That is NOT what I'm saying at all. I'm saying your metric is false and > > misleading / worthless. > > > > By your and Gartner's measure when Einstein wrote the formula for > > E=MC squared - it would have got a negative rating - do not use - since > > its adoption by everyone was low. > > > > We're here to provide ground breaking work that sets new measures > > for the industry - not kowtow to some vendor product set and > > marketing criteria for VP of Sales. > > > > If we are going to base what we are working on by what Gartner says > > then we may as well give up now. > > > > It's our task to create good work that leads to people adopting what > > we are delivering. Einstein understood that very clearly. > > > > Thanks, DW > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> > > To: "'ebSOA'" <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 10:23 AM > > Subject: Re: [ebsoa] Scope of TC (was SOA and Shared Semantics / Editors > > Action Item, et al) > > > > Thanks David. I will interpret your answer as meaning: > > > > (1) The current level of adoption of BCM and EPR in industry is low. > > (2) The current level of adoption of BCM and EPR in the US federal space > > is low; > > (3) The current level of adoption of BCM and EPR by vendors is low. > > > > All: We should VERY carefully consider how our TC will approach the > > incorporation of initiatives for which the overall adoption by industry, > > government, and vendors is very low. IOW, how well-equipped will we be > > to encourage adoption of our work if it relies so heavily on shaky > > foundations? > > > > Joe > > > > David RR Webber wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > I'm sorry but this is a BAH / Gartner / Big 6 consulting > > style stock question. > > > > I'll turn this around the other way - I've just been looking > > at Gartner slides showing the cost of integration - running > > into millions and millions of $$$. These slides are dated > > 2001, and May 2002 respectively. > > > > Joe - how much longer do you think companies are going > > to continue to throw money against the wall before they > > start seriously looking at BCM and EPR and CAM? > > > > 1 year, 5 years, 10 years? > > > > Frankly their competitors that understand this and are > > actively doing pilot projects will be the ones that win > > here. > > > > I just got back from a seminal trip to Europe. There is > > a sea change happening. With 25 countries infrastructure > > to enable - they are no longer waiting for the USA > > multi-national / outsourcing / consulting circus > > to deliver its next iteration of "solutions" (note: since 2001 > > they've changed nothing). > > > > Some very bright people over in Europe "get it", because > > they are facing these problems daily - and they are > > of a mood and a moment to do something about it > > themselves - instead of reading interesting but useless > > analysis reports from Gartner et al. > > > > Our challenge here with ebSOA is actually to provide > > these people with a real solution that can deliver > > long term and short term what they need to empower > > next generation systems, their citizens and communities. > > > > My presentation : http://eprforum.org (top RHS) - > > attempts to point out how this is all fitting together. > > I'm not claiming this is perfect yet - but its a start. > > > > Obviously the next step is to produce formal > > requirements around the European needs and > > submit those and then tackle how ebSOA > > delivers them. > > > > This is a very serious effort - as Peter Brown > > indicated to the group already - and it will take us > > three months of hard work here to deliver this > > initial analysis. > > > > Perhaps you can suggest how the US may also > > "wake up" here - and begin to realize that the > > issues that say AIA, AIAG, eGov, eHealthcare, > > have known about since 2001 all have common > > roots - and that a new holistic approach is > > needed to provide at least some baseline > > progress? I'm not holding my breath on this > > one however. > > > > Cheers, DW > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> > > Cc: "'ebSOA'" <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 8:50 AM > > Subject: Re: [ebsoa] Scope of TC (was SOA and Shared Semantics / Editors > > Action Item, et al) > > > > David, > > > > How would you characterize the current level of adoption of BCM and > > > > EPR > > > > both in industry and in the US federal space? This would include > > > > vendor > > > > adoption as well. > > > > Joe > > > > David RR Webber wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > I would further add to Peter's point - that ebXML is a living set > > of specifications that are evolving and improving to meet > > todays challenges. Therefore as Peter noted ebSOA's task > > is to describe the overall business functionality and components > > (in the same way that BCM has stated specific business needs) > > and then allow the individual TC's to show how their components > > actually support that and work in tandem using those perscribed > > facilitation mechanisms and what ebSOA provides for them. > > > > From the BCM side - examples are 'Linking and Switching' > > > > services, and then as Peter noted - Semantic Dictionary > > Services. I'd add to this BPM systems. > > > > What is interesting about this is that BCM/EPR is combining > > back-office and front-office capabilities. The original ebXML > > work left forms and transformation on the table - while EPR > > is now addressing this in powerful new ways. > > > > This will all challenge the ebSOA work to think beyond > > the confines of today's simplistic "web services" or "ebXML" > > thinking - and to truely break new ground. > > > > Thanks, DW > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Peter F Brown" <peter@justbrown.net> > > To: "'ebSOA'" <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org> > > Cc: "'Chiusano Joseph'" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 11:24 AM > > Subject: [ebsoa] Scope of TC (was SOA and Shared Semantics / Editors > > > > Action > > > > Item, et al) > > > > Dear ebSOA: > > > > A number of points strike me, looking back over the posts in the > > > > last > > > > few > > > > days. I'd like to give my tuppence worth as someone trying to > > > > drive > > > > implementation from a management and not a technology > > > > perspective... > > > > One of the great attractions of the ebXML - and particularly CCTS, > > > > RIM > > > > and > > > > BPSS - has been its generic approach to solving a series of > > > > related > > > > problems. It has been a breath of fresh air to those, like me, who > > > > warned > > > > from early days that XML was not going to solve the world's > > > > semantics > > > > with > > > > some carefully crafted Schema and tag names. The emphasis on > > > > syntax > > > > neutrality in particular has allowed us to concentrate on defining > > > > semantics > > > > upstream of any implementation, and yet have a rich, powerful, and > > > > reliable > > > > framework to give developers/implementers, whatever the hell they > > > > build > > > > with. > > > > Going beyond the SOA hype, I am certainly expecting something > > > > similar > > > > from > > > > ebSOA, and the more I look at it, the more I realise that there > > > > are > > > > strong > > > > echoes in the initiative that I have flagged up with the eGov TC > > > > and > > > > the > > > > European standards body, CEN, that I christened "semantic > > > > interoperability > > > > business implementation guidelines" (or SIBIG). Keep a focus on > > > > the > > > > generic, > > > > high-level, *service-oriented* issues and let the technical specs > > > > follow > > > > naturally... > > > > CCTS offers a standardised method to define business semantics. I > > > > would > > > > expect ebSOA similarly to offer a standardised approach to: > > - identifying semantic interoperability nodes, > > - managing connections between these nodes on different systems, > > - developing SOAs that promote this. > > > > Managing ontologies, the information sets that sustain them (incl > > > > metadata > > > > stores/registries), and other association/assertion mechanisms > > > > (tuple > > > > stores, Topic Maps, OWL, etc), would therefore seem to be entirely > > > > within > > > > scope. > > > > On the down side, however, I'm not so happy with the emphasis on > > > > updating > > > > the *technical* architecture of ebXML: this can only (and will) > > > > follow > > > > once > > > > the semantics and service level stuff is properly addressed. > > > > To answer Jo's question: If someone did not - for whatever > > > > reason - > > > > "subscribe" to the "ebXML way of doing things", the committee's > > > > output > > > > *should* IMO be useful whatever: just as CCTS is very valuable > > > > even if > > > > you > > > > don't buy into the rest (ebMS, BPSS, or UBL, etc). > > > > The value proposition is it's generic adoptability. > > > > Peter Brown > > > > Head of Information Resources Management > > European Parliament > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > I am currently on sabbatical leave, and affiliation is given for > > > > information > > > > purposes only. Any correspondence with my former service or the > > > > Parliament > > > > should be addressed to gri@europarl.eu.it > > > > Author of "Information Architecture with XML", published by John > > > > Wiley > > > > & > > > > Sons, see special offer at: www.XMLbyStealth.net > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > -- > > Kind Regards, > > Joseph Chiusano > > Associate > > Booz | Allen | Hamilton > > > > -- > > Kind Regards, > > Joseph Chiusano > > Associate > > Booz | Allen | Hamilton > > > > ___________________________ > > Matthew MacKenzie > > Senior Architect > > IDBU Server Solutions > > Adobe Systems Canada Inc. > > http://www.adobe.com/products/server/ > > mattm@adobe.com > > +1 (506) 871.5409 > > -- > Kind Regards, > Joseph Chiusano > Associate > Booz | Allen | Hamilton >
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