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Subject: RE: [ebxml-bp] BPSS evolution
Martin:
No problem at all. Actually, if you read my suggestions correctly, that would allow us to focus most of the efforts on what BPSS is about: "Business". I also have a lot of respect for UMM, my only issue with it so far has been that ebXML and UMM seem to be going on a diverging path. Getting BPSS out of synch with ebXML was for me a bigger problem that getting BPSS temporarily out of sync with UMM. As I said, I am looking forward for other people to suggest how we can evolve the business ontology of BPSS, I would only repeat poorly other people's idea if I were to talk about.
Jean-Jacques
tel: 425-649-6584
Cell: 508-333-7634
-----Original Message-----
From: Monica J. Martin [mailto:Monica.Martin@Sun.COM]
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 5:58 AM
To: martin.me.roberts@bt.com
Cc: Jean-Jacques Dubray; ebxml-bp@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [ebxml-bp] BPSS evolution
martin.me.roberts@bt.com wrote:
> JJ,
> I am sorry you felt I was getting at you. I was not. I was
> really only stating that the removal of some of the foundationl
> elements of the BPSS can only lead to some short term conceptual
> vacuum. Filling this with a concise statement of direction is clearly
> needed.
>
mm1: One of the first items we will address is this overall question:
What conceptual model(s) do we use as a guide or wish to adhere to.
This is one of the first items on the larger scale questions for today's
agenda. This topic was raised directly in the first call 20 October 2003
and briefly mentioned last week. Please bring your thoughts to the call
today or provide via the list should you be unable to attend. Good
initial thoughts to bring to the group and thanks.
> Although I found the UMM in penetrable in its latest format I
> think the ideas were powerful and simple. Losing this conceptual
> basis is not something to be done lightly. I would not blame anyone
> for moving away from it, but the consequences are that the end result
> will not be like the BPSS 1.1 but something different (hopefully better).
>
> I thought you questions were the right ones to be asking at this
> stage. The problem I have is that I am not sure who is in the right
> place to drive this conceptual model forward. Getting the right
> vision is crucial to being able to do some useful work.
>
>
> /Martin Roberts/
> xml designer,
> BT Exact
> *e-mail:* martin.me.roberts@bt.com
> *tel:* +44(0) 1473 609785 _clickdial_
> <http://clickdial.bt.co.uk/clickdial?001609785.cld>
> *fax:* +44(0) 1473 609834
> *Intranet Site :*http://twiki.btlabs.bt.co.uk/twiki
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* Jean-Jacques Dubray [mailto:jeanjadu@Attachmate.com]
> *Sent:* 03 November 2003 12:15
> *To:* Roberts,MME,Martin,XSG3 R; ebxml-bp@lists.oasis-open.org
> *Subject:* RE: [ebxml-bp] BPSS evolution
>
> Martin:
>
> as I said in Item 7. I think that other people in the group,
> including you, are more qualified for suggesting these kinds of
> ideas. So I don't think your statement is fair. I have simply
> addressed in my email what I felt I was most qualified to talk
> about. I would only give it a try if nobody else does.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jean-Jacques
> tel: 425-649-6584
> Cell: 508-333-7634
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* martin.me.roberts@bt.com
> [mailto:martin.me.roberts@bt.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, November 03, 2003 3:06 AM
> *To:* Jean-Jacques Dubray; ebxml-bp@lists.oasis-open.org
> *Subject:* RE: [ebxml-bp] BPSS evolution
>
> Dear all,
> The questions JJ asks indicate to me that the move to
> OASIS has removed one of the key conceptual models behind the
> BPPSS namely the UMM model. Before deciding on the XML
> content for the OASIS BPSS there will be a need to understand
> the concepts that need to be implemented. UMM and UML offer
> some good features, but removing the link will undoubtedly
> give the team more degrees of freedom. Is this a good thing?
> I know from my experience that not having constraints usually
> wastes time and energy as those boundaries are defined.
>
> So it looks like this group had better go on concept hunt!
>
>
>
> /Martin Roberts/
> xml designer,
> BT Exact
> *e-mail:* martin.me.roberts@bt.com
> *tel:* +44(0) 1473 609785 _clickdial_
> <http://clickdial.bt.co.uk/clickdial?001609785.cld>
> *fax:* +44(0) 1473 609834
> *Intranet Site :*http://twiki.btlabs.bt.co.uk/twiki
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* Jean-Jacques Dubray [mailto:jeanjadu@Attachmate.com]
> *Sent:* 03 November 2003 04:26
> *To:* ebxml-bp@lists.oasis-open.org
> *Subject:* [ebxml-bp] BPSS evolution
>
> hi:
>
> here is a list of possible directions to evolve ebXML BPSS:
>
> 1. Control flow: 1.01 / 1.1 BPSS control is based on
> modified UML activity diagram semantics. This is a bit
> limiting and UML is changing these semantics in UML 2.0
> a. we could liaise with ws-chor and see if we could
> reference a ws-chor definition for a business transaction,
> binary and multiparty collaboration definitions.
> b. we could look at the work of Will Van Der Aalst if
> liaison with ws-chor is not possible
> 2. Business Transactions: 1.01 / 1.1 BPSS BT Message
> Exchange Pattern is not general enough
> We could extend the definition of BT (or other
> concepts) via different MEPs
> 3. Business Transaction Protocol: 1.01/1.1 Embedded in the
> BPSS spec
> a. we could liaise with ws-caf or other relevant BTP
> groups and specify their usage in the context of BPSS
> rather than
> 4. Specify a WSDL binding for the BSI: 1.01/1.1 currently
> no work has been done in this direction.
> 5. Allow for a mixed mode: business transaction / web
> service within a collaboration definition.
> 6. Orchestration / Choreography / Collaboration
> architecture and bindings
> Today there is still a lot of confusion on these
> concepts. We need to provide a better picture on how these
> concepts play together in a common architecture.
>
> 7. I have a few more but I would like for other to propose
> them
>
> It would be good also if we could surface the issue of web
> services alignement to all ebXML working groups.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jean-Jacques Dubray
> attachmate
> 3617 131st Ave
> Bellevue, WA 98006
> tel: 425-649-6584
> Cell: 508-333-7634
>
>
>
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