RE: markup race

[Rex Brooks <rexb@starbourne.com>]

First I will reply to Volker, and then to Manos.

Volker: You should read more thoroughly before jumping to 
conclusions. I do not wish to deflect any honest interest you might 
have in our work because anthropology is a ripe arena for HumanML, 
and I do not want to present an impression that we reject the 
interests of anyone, let alone someone from a discipline which is 
directly within our purview.

That said, you do yourself a disservice by not investigating further 
before levelling criticism that is aimed at a misperception of your 
own making. This is  precisely what the mission statement, "The aim 
is to enhance FIDELITY of human communication."  means. We want to 
HELP avoid or reduce miscommunication. We are not offering any sort 
of panacea, nor are we attempting to end world hunger, achieve 
immanent world peace or any such mischaracterization of our goals or 
ideals, either. Neither will we shrink from that idealism, nor from 
uncomfortable concepts such as race which so deform our world.

First you take a concept, race,  that is thoroughly discredited, as 
you point out, but which is currently used however discredited it is 
and which must, therefore, be accounted for in order for our work to 
be applicable in the real world as it is rather than as we would wish 
it to be, and you criticize us for ALLEGEDLY using it. All of our 
code is currently in very early draft example stage, and as such, is 
experimental and for the purpose of experimentation only. Your 
criticism is noted. As Manos pointed out, there is no HumanML yet.

We had our FIRST official OASIS Technical Committee meeting yesterday 
after seven (7) months of determined work. We invite you to join our 
effort if you are sincerely interested in accomplishing a useable 
improvement in the FIDELITY of human communication. As you note, 
there is no shortage of work to be done, and done as well as we can 
possibly do it. We need your help. And humanity needs all the help it 
can get.

Manos: The public comments list is the appropriate place for such 
inquiries as this, and that is what this is, I believe, an inquiry in 
the form of a criticism. Work is being conducted here as well, 
although voting and private TC business is reserved for the TC list. 
Right now that is the best way to proceed. So work is going to have 
to be carefully threaded, that is, work should be done through 
responding to specfic threads, and not changing Subject Lines unless 
we move away from a work topic.

Please note: You are still a Prospective Member of the TC and will be 
a voting member in 60days with or without being able to attend TC 
meetings and thereby  meeting the roll call requirement. Since you 
were an original member, it may well be construed that you are 
already a full TC member since a great deal more than 60 days of 
involvement with this effort has passed.

For our International Members/participants: If we can arrange an 
acceptable,verifiably  loggable, open, publicly available chat venue 
for our meetings so as to accommodate our international members 
instead of monetarily penalizing them by requiring a long-distance 
telephone call-in, however inadvertently, we will. Otherwise we will 
have to find a way to provide funding for international call-ins to 
our teleconference meetings. The good news is that the teleconference 
concept was proved out yesterday quite handily.

We have already changed the time of our meetings to the Third 
Wednesday of the Month at 12:00 Noon Eastern Time or 7:00 p.m. GMT. 
This alone should help, and we will proceed from there.

Thanks,
Rex

  At 4:17 PM +0300 9/18/01, Manos Batsis wrote:
>HumanML is not going to be a tool with a fixed classification system
>based on subjective characterizations; such systems are vertical and not
>reusable. Implementors will build their own classification system based
>on HumanML and maybe some other work. HumanML may be subjective to that
>level, because that's what the developer will want to do. Thus, there is
>no "Race module" or "eye color" property, or whatever. Actually, there
>is no HumanML yet.
>
>I think this message shows that this list has drifted away in discussing
>work that will be done by implementors of HumanML and not by HumanML
>directly. Categorization based on physical or mental characteristics, as
>well as discussion about rendering/presentation, do not fit directly in
>what we are trying to accomplish. What HumanML is about IMHO at least,
>is to give the internet community a language to describe relationships
>between concepts of human thought.
>
>Finally, I would like to kindly ask from everyone to focus on what we
>are trying to accomplish and leave unrelated conversation outside the
>list in a private level. We all have an overloaded mailbox already;
>while this kind of postings does not help people (or ourselves for that
>matter) understand what this is about.
>
>Kindest regards,
>
>Manos
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Volker Hamann [mailto:arthide@magicvillage.de]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 8:41 AM
>To: humanmarkup-comment@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject: markup race
>
>To whom it may concern.
>
>HumanML: "The aim is to enhance the fidelity of human communication."
>
>Since i am an anthropologist who often handles html and some other
>codes, i can imagine, your HumanML undertaking is meant as a
>subversive joke. At least the use of 'race' in a draft from your
>websites (see the relevant cut of code below) indicates, you want to
>say that the in oasis involved US companies still record workers and
>employees as black, red, white halfblood or quarterblood. Code lists
>with values for jewish and half jewish?
>
>Scientifically, genetically, anthropologically, zoologically the idea
>of different human races cannot be prooved. Read Luigi Luca
>Cavalli-Sforza (Genetics, Stanford), to understand why humankind is
>not divided into races. Humans are one race among the races of
>hominides.
>
>You may find opponents to this scientific teaching. However, a
>language which aims to be as universal as possible, if i take your
>motto above for better than Brave New World, should not be decorated
>with race ideology, this way or that way. Better leave it out now
>immediately.
>
>The present realisation of the idea of HumanML also in deeper and more
>complex philosophical aspects needs to be criticized from all possible
>sides, to effect its design radically.
>
>Volker Hamann
>
>   The height and weight types should be numbers but have to allow for
>different measurement systems
>   </xhtml:p>
>
>- <xhtml:p>
>   <xhtml:strong>NOTE:</xhtml:strong>
>   The race, hair color, eyeColor, build attributes need code lists for
>values
>   </xhtml:p>
>
>
>
>
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-- 
Rex Brooks
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison, Berkeley, CA, 94702 USA, Earth
W3Address: http://www.starbourne.com
Email: rexb@starbourne.com
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