Re: [legalxml-courtfiling] RE: ECF 4.0 GetDocument specification/implementation

[James E Cabral <jec@mtgmc.com>]

OK, I’m hearing an action item for ECF 5.  Who wants to own it?  Jim McMillan?  Gary?  Dallas? Bryant?

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Jim Cabral
502 509-4532

From: Jim McMillan
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎16‎, ‎2015 ‎6‎:‎30‎ ‎PM
To: Dallas Powell
Cc: James E Cabral, Bryant Austin, legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org

Thanks Dallas for the clarification.   The document issue might be something that JTC/CITOC could provide some leadership on as it is a perceived and real structural issue that either needs rules clarification or new rules. 

On Jun 16, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Dallas Powell <dpowell@tybera.com> wrote:

no

 

From: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf Of McMillan, Jim
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 2:55 PM
To: James E Cabral; Bryant Austin; legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [LIKELY_SPAM]RE: [legalxml-courtfiling] RE: ECF 4.0 GetDocument specification/implementation

 

Is this because Washoe is using PDF binders for their documents like Tybera showed at a couple of the tech conferences (Case-a-dia?)?

 

From: James E Cabral [mailto:jec@mtgmc.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 4:49 PM
To: McMillan, Jim; Bryant Austin; legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [legalxml-courtfiling] RE: ECF 4.0 GetDocument specification/implementation

 

FYI. I received the following related use case from Dallas Powell:

 

Perhaps most people know this but there are some CMS systems where you can only have one document per docket entry while other CMS systems allows for one lead document per docket entry and multiple attachments.  There is also a security setting for each level as well.  Here is an example: Washoe 2^nd District had a situation where the case was public, the docket entry was public, the lead document (a complaint) was public, but the attachments were sealed because they were pictures of a women in a compromising situation and the court was not willing to expose information that is considered lewd or pornographic in nature.   When you retrieve a document from a docket entry and there are multiple documents if there is only one ID then the system must first combine the documents into a single document before it can return the information.  Sometimes courts split the documents up just due to size and not security as well.

 

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Jim Cabral
502 509-4532

 

From: Jim McMillan
Sent: ‎Tuesday‎, ‎June‎ ‎16‎, ‎2015 ‎9‎:‎58‎ ‎AM
To: Bryant Austin, legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org

 

Shouldn’t we be using NIEM Core “DocumentIdentification” ?

 

http://apps.ncsc.org/niem/ShowElement.aspx?element=nc:DocumentIdentification

 

I agree with Brian that there in nearly all instances a document identification number being sent from a filer’s / EFSP system and in turn placed in the court’s document repository (even if it is linked documents in a CMS)

 

Jim M

 

From: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org [mailto:legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf Of Bryant Austin
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 9:21 AM
To: legalxml-courtfiling@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [legalxml-courtfiling] ECF 4.0 GetDocument specification/implementation

 

I am hesitant to add more questions, but as I have been working through implementation of ECF 4.01 I have found the following and am not sure of the real intent.  The beginning definition of the GetDocument message in the ecf-4.01-spec states a case number and a document number, but the xsd files show a nc:CaseTrackingID and a nc:CaseDocketID (pertinent parts of the definitions are below for reference).  The niem definition seems to have a definite difference between a docket and a document.  I don’t understand how a document can be located with just the case tracking ID and the docket ID without a document number.  There can be many documents associated with a case and each document should have its own identifying number.

 

Thanks!

 

The ecf-4.01-spec document states the following, “3.2.13 GetDocument The Filing Assembly MDE MAY invoke the GetDocument query operation, including the case number and document number, on the Court Record MDE to retrieve a particular document from a case.  The Court Record MDE will respond synchronously with the requested document or instructions on how to access it.”

 

The ECF-4.0-DocumentQueryMessage.xsd has the following:

“              <xsd:complexType name="DocumentQueryMessageType">

                                <xsd:annotation>

                                                <xsd:documentation>A request for an electronic document in the court's official record. </xsd:documentation>

                                </xsd:annotation>

                                <xsd:complexContent>

                                                <xsd:extension base="ecf:QueryMessageType">

                                                                <xsd:sequence>

                                                                                <xsd:element ref="nc:CaseTrackingID"/>

                                                                                <xsd:element ref="nc:CaseDocketID"/>

                                                                </xsd:sequence>

                                                </xsd:extension>

                                </xsd:complexContent>

                </xsd:complexType>”

 

The niem-core.xsd has the following, “

                <xsd:element name="CaseDocketID" type="niem-xsd:string" nillable="true">

                                <xsd:annotation>

                                                <xsd:documentation>An identifier used to reference a case docket.</xsd:documentation>”