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Subject: RE: [office] ODF 1.2 Single-Level Conformance and Law of Unintended Consequences
This also reminds me of another debate, called floor=ceiling. Floor=Ceiling was debated in the early days of initial COBOL standardization efforts and it continued for a while. I can't recall which side of the debate Committee Chair Howard Bromberg held onto and if he flipped at any time. Generally, producers of implementations did not look kindly at floor=ceiling and user communities (but not all of them) and especially standards sheriffs of various persuasions wanted floor=ceiling. Of course, COBOL was modularized and there were definite implementation-specific provisions (COMPUTATIONAL-1, COMPUTATIONAL-2, ... and similar aspects coming to mind), so I am not sure how much it was felt that floor=ceiling was achieved, in the end. At that time, I was a big proponent of floor=ceiling, even though the first programming-language standard (for Fortran in 1966) had two levels. In reality, producers rarely said they were doing Basic Fortran with extensions, they invariably claimed Full Fortran with a few rarely-explicitly-defined missing features and whatever extensions they were promoting. That propensity seems to be alive and well in the document-format world, too. So you could persuade me to align with floor=ceiling, although my concern is that the provision and specification around foreign elements and arbitrary style and metadata additions already exist (and I can see lots of processors wanting to stay with metadata.xml rather than take the RDF route for some simple metadata feature the expression of which in RDF is no more standard but far more effort). I am not convinced that it is wise to force RDF metadata into routine processing by legislation in the standard. It would be better to see how eagerly implementations support it before we lock out an existing easy case for an easy problem. [With regard to my objection to magical thinking about RDF metadata, I don't see any way it can be used to introduce styles as currently formulated such that an implementation is likely to notice it even happening, in contrast with arbitrary style:*-mumble.] - Dennis PS: If we are going to remove or deprecate some of these because they have not been seen in use or to be useful, we should maybe start filtering other features that seem to have no implementations. Or perhaps it is better to consider such breakage in moving to an ODF 2.0 some day. PPS: I concede that the law of unintended consequences can work both ways, considering the proclivity of producers for wanting to claim support of the latest and greatest and of users to having it available as a check-off. -----Original Message----- From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org] http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200901/msg00134.html Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:11 To: 'robert_weir@us.ibm.com' Cc: 'office@lists.oasis-open.org' Subject: RE: [office] ODF 1.2 Single-Level Conformance and Law of Unintended Consequences Thanks Rob, With regard to current allowances of implementation-defined features, the choice of schema matters. The "strict" schema actually removes some areas where implementation-defined extensions were explicit in the schema itself. (And, for a different example, I assert that it is a feature, not a limitation, to have omission of table:protection-key-digest-algorithm mean that the hash function that produces the table:protection-key is implementation defined [and also upward-compatible from 1.1 as well].) If we leave the non-strict schema as the only one, that is a different story since it is the schema against which Conforming Document is defined in 1.1. Also, the appearance of optional arbitrary metadata elements and style:*-properties is explicit in the schema and in the 1.1 conformance clause, which goes on to say that a conformant processor should preserve such material. I don't see this language in the current conformance clause. So that is something we need to be clear about with regard to 1.2 and the chosen schema. I think this is like one of those strict-constructionism debates. I have no idea why these provisions and the foreign element provisions are in ODF 1.0/1.1, nor the problems that were being addressed. I can see benign and valuable uses of them, but that is an academic point. I just don't like fixing something by breaking it. With regard to interoperability, I don't think the issue is even close to hinging on what the spec says a conformant document is, strictly or loosely. I must remember to point out that there is no advice around what it means to provide no semantic support for something that is part of a conformant document, while there is clear advice around dealing with an unrecognized foreign element. It would be nice to be able to say that if no semantic support is provided for a feature of a conformant document, the processor should treat it using the rules for foreign elements and attributes. This also works for unrecognized features using ODF-specified namespaces too. (The office:process-content advice could be extended for that as well, rather than deprecated.) - Dennis -----Original Message----- From: robert_weir@us.ibm.com [mailto:robert_weir@us.ibm.com] http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200901/msg00131.html Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 09:18 To: office@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [office] ODF 1.2 Single-Level Conformance and Law of Unintended Consequences http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200901/msg00130.html "Dennis E. Hamilton" <dennis.hamilton@acm.org> wrote on 01/19/2009 11:44:34 AM: > > That was a very interesting discussion on conformance with regard to > having a single-level conformant document. > > I want to reaffirm that, with the single-level approach, we need to > deal with all of those places where implementation-defined features > are allowed. (Another example is in the use of alternative > renditions and objects where there is currently no specification of > MIME types for recognized ones.) > The TC may certainly address other areas where ODF currently has implementation-defined features, but I wouldn't say this is a necessity. Remember, the proposal for "loosely conformant" documents dealt with only a single dimension of extensibility, that done by the allowance of foreign elements and attributes. If we do not allow such extensions in conformant ODF 1.2 documents, then the status quo with regards to other implementation-defined behaviors remains unchanged unless the TC wishes to address those areas separately. [ ... ]
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