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Subject: Re: [opendocument-users] simple OO.org document goes awry in MS Office 2007 w/SP2 - what went wrong?
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:37 AM, <robert_weir@us.ibm.com> wrote: > So any time the document does not interoperable, the end user cannot tell > whether it is a bug in the authoring application, or a bug in the > destination application, and whether any of these bugs are related to the > standard. The best thing to do is report it to the the vendors involved > in the transaction, let them debug the issue. If it ends up to be an > issue in the ODF standard, then they should be able to propose any changes > necessary. In this particular cases, both vendors participate on the ODF > TC, so they have direct access to make such technical proposals. So I understand it, are you saying that every bug report I or anyone else sends you on an interop failure between Lotus Symphony and other ODF implementations will result in you promptly submitting a TC proposal to fix the relevant spec(s) with as many mandatory interop requirements as are needed to remove the relevant ambiguity if the failure is due to an ambiguity or other flaw in the spec, Rob? And that you'll shepherd that proposal through the TC and implement the fix? It's noteworthy, I think, that the bug reporting method you recommend is the status quo ante and has not in nearly seven years produced a single ODF specification that even attempts to specify the conformity requirements that are essential to achieve interoperability. There's been a historical problem with TC members who don't translate interop failures into proposals to fix the specification accordingly. Take the example of the lament by KDE KOffice's Thomas Zander: "One thing I have always dreamed to be possible is that when I write a doc in KOffice I can then open it in OOo to use that one feature that's useful to me and then save it and continue in KOffice without loosing lots of data. "Its still a dream, of course. Most features are lost on opening and saving it in OOo, but its a nice goal :)" Thomas Zander, email to OASIS OpenDocument Adoption Technical Committee mailing list (September 27, 2007), <http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/odf-adoption/200709/msg00032.html>. No proposal to the TC to add some relevant metadata preservation requirements. Somewhat over a year later, KDE's Inge Wallin was quoted as saying, "The use of the OpenDocument Format as the native file format. This makes KOffice immediately compatible with a lot of other office software, most notably OpenOffice.org. True, there still exists a few incompatibilities, but most of those can be attributed to bugs that we will fix as soon as we become aware of them." Rodney Gedda, KOffice on Version 2.0, Extensions, and Being Like Firefox, ComputerWorld (28 May 2009) (quoting KDE's Inge Wallin), <http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/304893/koffice_devs_version_2_0_extensions_being_like_firefox>. So now we're told that the remaining problems are all on KDE's side of the fence. If we are to lend credence to both the earlier and later statements, one might infer that KDE and Sun worked out their interop issues at the application level but didn't go to the trouble of submitting corresponding proposals to fix the spec so others could benefit from the knowledge they gained through their collaboration. And certainly IBM hasn't exactly been a fount of proposals for fixing the interop bugs in the spec. Instead, IBM pushes plugfests without any corresponding push to get the knowledge thus gained into the specification so others who didn't flit around the globe attending ODF plugfests can benefit from the collaboration. Problematic, I think. E.g., U.S. Federal Trade Commission and Department of Justice, Antitrust Guidelines for Collaborations among Competitors (April, 2000), <http://www.ftc.gov/os/2000/04/ftcdojguidelines.pdf>, pg. 2 n. 5: "These Guidelines take into account neither the possible effects of competitor collaborations in foreclosing or *limiting competition by rivals not participating in a collaboration* nor the possible anticompetitive effects of standard setting in the context of competitor collaborations. Nevertheless, these effects may be of concern to the Agencies and may prompt enforcement actions." How are those two proverbial guys with a garage going to enter and compete effectively in the ODF implementation market if they missed all those plugfests? See e.g., my comment to the office-comment list last night: "An ODF Plugfest is under way in The Netherlands. Interoperability failures are being identified on a wiki. <http://plugtest.opendocsociety.org/doku.php?id=links> ---> Scenarios. "I propose that the TC add a corresponding work item to its agenda. The work item would be: [i] to identify for each interoperability failure reported on the linked ODF Plugfest site the relevant portions of each ODF specification; [ii] to evaluate whether the interoperability failure was due to ambiguity in an ODF standard and if so whether each such ambiguity found exists in other versions of the standard; and [iii[ to repair each such specification accordingly using normative language and defined requirement keywords." <http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/200906/msg00007.html>. Are the interop failures identified at the Plugfest even going to be evaluated by the participants to see if they're due to ambiguities in the spec or are the participants just going to be negotiating fixes that won't get translated into TC proposals? I'd really like a straightforward answer to that question, Rob. Every time a TC member does not translate user reports of interop failures into proposals to fix the spec if the failures were due to ambiguity in the spec, the TC (and later JTC 1) is deprived of any benefit of the user's report. On the other hand, if the user report goes initially to the TC rather than to the vendor member, the vendor still has an opportunity to work on the problem and even more incentive to propose a relevant fix for the standard. Of course there's the all too common user-seeking-support experience where the app vendor blames the operating system and the operating system vendor blames the app, but the user gets left without a fix. Transposed to the ODF app < > app situation, it's a lot less time-consuming and expensive to blame the other vendor's app than to figure out what's wrong with ODF, develop a proposal to fix it, and then buck the proposal through the ODF TC. In summary, sending the interop failure reports to the vendors is an untrustworthy process that can result in data loss between the user and the ODF TC. On the other hand, the vendor is deprived of no data by the report being sent to the TC instead. The TC will log the report in its issue tracking system and the TC will decide what to do about the report. It's an action forcing system. But there's nothing forcing vendors to report interop failures to the TC and they have incentives not to do so. Nearly seven years is time enough to proclaim reliance on vendors to submit interop proposals to the ODF TC a failed experiment. Past time for a different procedure. Best regards, Paul E. Merrell, J.D. (Marbux) -- Universal Interoperability Council <http:www.universal-interop-council.org>
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