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Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Another diagram
Thanks Ken, I wasn't aware that you intended Risk and Trust to be Association Classes. Theat puts us closer. Cheers, Rex At 11:39 AM -0400 5/14/09, Ken Laskey wrote: >On May 14, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Rex Brooks wrote: > >>I think Danny's point was that the predicted (expected, intended, >>desired) RWE determines Willingness, but we don't yet have >>distinctions for different kinds or aspects of RWE in the RAF. Ken's >>diagrams and Dave's description of the latest DoDAF/DISA thinking >>include that, but we haven't accepted that yet. >> >>The problem with these types: >>positive-predicted-expected-intended-desired RWE v. >>negative-unintended RWE is that the positive is acted upon based on >>the projected future state while the negative is only apparent as >>something that ought to habe been avoided AFTER actual RWE happens, >>e.g. after state change. >> > >The positive is acted upon on the projected future state while the >negative is projected future state that is grounds for avoiding >action or taking alternate mitigating action. > >>To use Ken's model of Trust-Risk with Frank's, Risk would now need to >>be an Association Class to match Trust, > >Didn't I make both Trust and Risk association classes between the >Trusting and the Trusted? > >>but the temporal aspects of >>Trust and Risk are out of synch, except as past experience is used in >>the assessment phase prior to reaching the (unincluded) Willingness >>Threshold, triggering Willingness as currently modeled. If we just >>say up front that we are not chained to synchronous context, we can >>lose that problem. >> >1. I agree that a note may be adequate. >2. My comment above would say they really aren't out of synch at all. >This doesn't preclude a possible note on sequencing. > >>However, if we use Danny's diagram Ken's model of Risk would not >>need to be changed because it seems to retain Trust as a simple Class >>not an Association Class so Ken's model of Tuest-Risk would not need >>to be changed. However, the question of whether, where and how to use >>Risk remains. >> > >I see Danny's diagram almost as a subset of mine, and I think the >two can converge with a bit more discussion. Danny introduces State >but explicitly not Shared State, but I didn't quite catch why or the >intended distinction. Given RWE is in terms of Shared State, I feel >just saying State begs for an explicit relationship to tie loose >ends together. > >>I like Frank's diagram marginally better than Danny's (as it now >>stands even with changing the dependency of Willingness on temporally >>undifferentiated RWE) because I think State needs to be Shared State >>for interaction to proceed. >> >>I understand Duane's comment now too. Let's send in some nanobots >>next time we want to look under a big rock like Trust. >> >>;-) >> >>Cheers, >>Rex >> >>At 10:11 PM -0700 5/13/09, Francis McCabe wrote: >>>Danny >>>Your diagram seems to show that RWE determines willingness. You >>>surely do not mean that? >>>Frank >>>On May 13, 2009, at 9:35 PM, Danny Thornton wrote: >>> >>>>Making a decision based on a belief that is contradicted by >>>>evidence means a set of rules exist that are higher priority than >>>>the attempt to create new rules based on evidence. In either case >>>>there is a rule base (willingness) for the decision making process. >>>> >>>>In the opposite case, as in the con man, rules may override >>>>preexisting rules based on evidence, even if the evidence is false. >>>> >>>>Trust does not have to be based on an action but is based on some >>>>expected real world effect. Ken has stated this observation a >>>>couple of times. A computing system may calculate that the >>>>resources required to prevent negative consequences outweighs the >>>>negative consequences. The negative consequences may be due to >>>>actions or inaction. >>>> >>>>I've attached an updated version of Frank's diagram with these >>>>views. I specifically did not give State the name of Shared State >>>>and I specifically did not connect State to Real World Effect >>>>(Duane's con man example and also the case of insanity). >>>> >>>>Danny >>>> >>>> >>>>--- On Wed, 5/13/09, Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>>From: Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com> >>>>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Another diagram >>>>>To: "Ken Laskey" <klaskey@mitre.org>, "Rex Brooks" <rexb@starbourne.com> >>>>>Cc: "Francis McCabe" <frankmccabe@mac.com>, >>>>>"soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org" <soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>>>Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 2:31 PM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Re: [soa-rm-ra] Another diagram >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I agree with Ken (especially the >>>>>part about not trusting Bettina to pick out a good action >>>>>movie). I think that "evidence" is really >>>>>"beliefs" or similar. Many people see >>>>>evidence to the contrary but still believe their original >>>>>notions. For example, your see evidence that >>>>>contradicts your deep rooted beliefs. Most people >>>>>still like to cling to their belief system. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>D >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On 5/13/09 2:00 PM, "Ken Laskey" <klaskey@mitre.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>I do not >>>>>trust her to go to the video >>>>> >>>>>store and pick out a good action adventure movie. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>> >>>>>Sr. Technical Evangelist - Adobe Systems >>>>> >>>>>Chair - OASIS SOA RM Technical Committee >>>>> >>>>>Manager - Adobe LiveCycle ES Developers List >>>>> >>>>>Blog: http://technoracle.blogspot.com >>>>> >>>>>Twitter: duanechaos >>>>> >>>>>TV Show: http://www.duanesworldtv.org >>>>> >>>>>Band: http://www.myspace.com/22ndcentury >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>><Trust.png>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >>>>generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >>>>https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >>> >>> >>> >>>Attachment converted: Macintosh HD:smime 1063.p7s ( / ) (017418A3) >> >> >>-- >>Rex Brooks >>President, CEO >>Starbourne Communications Design >>GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison >>Berkeley, CA 94702 >>Tel: 510-898-0670 >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >>generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >>https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ken Laskey >MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 >McLean VA 22102-7508 -- Rex Brooks President, CEO Starbourne Communications Design GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison Berkeley, CA 94702 Tel: 510-898-0670
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