RE: [soa-rm] RE: Act versus Object versus...both?

["Matt MacKenzie" <mattm@adobe.com>]

I avoided HTML and rich text in email for a long time, but am finding it harder these days where 60% of my interaction with co-workers and colleagues is via long email threads.

 

-matt

 

---

From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 11:29 AM
To: Matt MacKenzie
Cc: Rex Brooks; Bashioum, Christopher D; Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [soa-rm] RE: Act versus Object versus...both?

 

I know hard core techies who do it to avoid their IT people.  Especially prevalent on people who do computer security work and avoid Exchange.

 

Ken

 

On Dec 9, 2005, at 7:47 AM, Matt MacKenzie wrote:

Are people still using mutt, pine and elm to read email?  

 

-matt

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] 

Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2005 11:59 AM

To: Bashioum, Christopher D; Chiusano Joseph;

soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org

Subject: RE: [soa-rm] RE: Act versus Object versus...both?

 

Please send text only, or do whatever is required so that I don't 

have to turn on html in my email client, because I will certainly 

forget to turn it off again before writing to other listservs where 

recipients get bent out of joint whenever they encounter this stuff. 

Of course, I also can't read whatever the message was supposed to be.

 

Rex

 

At 11:23 AM -0500 12/8/05, Bashioum, Christopher D wrote:

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:

    McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca

[mailto:McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca]

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent: 06

December

    2005 19:09 </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:

    klaskey@mitre.org; marchadr@wellsfargo.com; dnickull@adobe.com;

    goran.zugic@semantion.com; mattm@adobe.com; tmathews@lmi.org;

    sallystamand@yahoo.com; frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com

</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:

    soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:

RE:

    [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I agree

with Ken.

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

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    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The

service

    consumer is the key concept that indicates the entity that invoked

the

    service in the first place. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

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    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A 

brokering service

    or service actor is merely a middle-man. </SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Wes

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY:

Arial">-----Original

    Message----- </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From: Ken

Laskey

    [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org] </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:

December 6,

    2005 2:02 PM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:

    marchadr@wellsfargo.com; dnickull@adobe.com;

goran.zugic@semantion.com;

    mattm@adobe.com; tmathews@lmi.org; sallystamand@yahoo.com;

    frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:

    soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:

RE:

    [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I could 

argue that

    a broker consumes the service on someone else's behalf.&nbsp; In

reality,

    service actor seems too nondescriptive because either the consumer

or the

    provider can be thought of as an actor. </SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ken

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">At 01:45

PM

    12/6/2005, marchadr@wellsfargo.com wrote: </SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

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    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; 

PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 363.35pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium 

none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I hate to

stir

    things up a bit, but can you change the service consumer term to

service

    actor? </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

none; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 

1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 3.0pt"><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Since in

the case

    of brokering the service actor is not consuming but brokering a

request to

    another service. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The 

broker service

    can be a service actor upon the service but might not really

consume any

    part of the service since it is a pass through.

</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 3.0pt"><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 363.35pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium 

none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">But I 

guess this is

    a matter of opinion. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- Dan

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY:

Arial">-----Original

    Message----- </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From: 

Ken Laskey [

    mailto:klaskey@mitre.org] </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

none; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:

Tuesday,

    December 06, 2005 10:39 AM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To: 

Duane Nickull;

    Goran Zugic; Matt MacKenzie; MATHEWS, Tim; Sally St. Amand;

    frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:

    soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 3.0pt"><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:

RE:

    [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 3.0pt"><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; 

PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 363.35pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium 

none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

none; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think 

we need to

    add some words to the RM to capture this discussion.&nbsp; We 

cover part of

    this in the beginning of Section 3.2.1 but need to be more

specific that:

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- a

service

    consumer can be a human or a software agent; </SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- a

service

    consumer can invoke any number of services (including a single

service in

    isolation) and can chain the output of some services to act as 

the input of

    others; </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 3.0pt"><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- from

the

    perspective of a given service, the occurrence of such chaining 

would not be

    visible; </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- the

service

    consumer can be implementing a business process;

</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- the 

specific of a

    business process do not change the basic SOA concepts as described

in the

    RM; however, the specific architecture that one designs and 

implements will

    reflect the business process and make use of specific service 

instances that

    corresponds to the real world effects that the business process

hopes to

    realize. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Now 

that said, and

    in full appreciation that we agreed earlier that mechanisms which

combine

    services (e.g. choreography, orchestration) are out of scope, is

it

    sufficient for words, such as those suggested above, to be

included

    somewhere within the current discussion or do we need to pull it 

out into a

    subsection on its own?&nbsp; As an example of the former, we tried

to deal

    with loose-coupling and coarse-grained with words at the end of 

Section 2.1.

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ken

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">At 12:23

PM

    12/6/2005, Duane Nickull wrote: </SPAN></FONT><FONT

color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Goran:

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I 

slightly disagree

    with your assertions, probably based on semantics.&nbsp; For a

service to

    "participate" in a process, it would have to be aware of the 

process (which

    many will not be).&nbsp; A better way to depict this may be to

state

    "services may be aggregated and used by processes" and "processes

may be

    represented/exposed as services".&nbsp; There are really no limits

to the

    number of layers that can be present.&nbsp; Attached is a UML 

CVD depicting

    such. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A key 

rationale of

    why process is not part of SOA is that services cannot see

process.&nbsp;

    They are not aware of whether they are being called as part of a 

process vs.

    as an individual service.&nbsp; If the "s" part of SOA cannot see

or touch

    that, it cannot be part of the RM. </SPAN></FONT><FONT

color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The 

chicken and egg

    discussion you bring forward is a requirement for those building 

services to

    strongly consider the business process when designing their

service

    infrastructure.&nbsp; Accordingly, it is not really part of the RM

for SOA

    yet I agree that it is a very important consideration.

</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">For your

messages

    to get to the list, you must join as a "applicant" rather than 

an "observer"

    as per OASIS process. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Duane

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 

Arial">*******************************</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Adobe

Systems,

    Inc. - </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy><SPAN

    style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 

Arial">http://www.adobe.com</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN lang=FR-CA

    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; 

mso-ansi-language: FR-CA">Vice

    Chair - UN/CEFACT&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy

    size=2><SPAN lang=FR-CA

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; 

mso-ansi-language: FR-CA">http://www.uncefact.org/

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN lang=FR-CA

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext; 

mso-ansi-language: FR-CA"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Chair -

OASIS SOA

    Reference Model Technical Committee </SPAN></FONT><FONT

color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Personal

Blog -

    http://technoracle.blogspot.com/ </SPAN></FONT><FONT

color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 

Arial">*******************************

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From: 

Goran Zugic [

    mailto:goran.zugic@semantion.com] </SPAN></FONT><FONT

color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:

Monday,

    December 05, 2005 8:47 PM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To: 

Duane Nickull;

    Matt MacKenzie; MATHEWS, Tim; Sally St. Amand;

frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:

    soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:

Re:

    [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Duane,

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks

for the

    response. Yes I would like to see the PPT. I hope you do not mind

if I add

    few more thoughts related to services and business processes:

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Services

    participate in a business process to add some value to it. They

can be

    governed and evaluated using business process metrics. One service

can

    participate in many business processes and provide value to each

of them

    according to the context within that process. As far as SOA is 

concerned it

    is as important to know what the service does, how it can be

discovered,

    contacted, invoked, executed, etc. as it is to be able to use it 

within the

    process context, measure it and assess its value from the business

process

    requirements point of view. SOA needs to avoid typical new

technology

    chicken and egg syndrome, e.g. companies not producing services

because

    there are no service friendly process definitions to use them 

and not having

    SOA friendly process definitions because there are no services to

use.

    Services do not have to know if they will be involved in the

process

    upfront, they will be contacted on demand according to the process

script

    that is in effect, and they will be contacted, checked if 

available, passed

    the arguments, collected the response and according to their 

procedure left

    alone to wait for another call. The process execution engine

however needs

    to invoke the service according to both service specific 

information and the

    process specific information. </SPAN></FONT><FONT

color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Having

just the

    service specific information in a model covers only one part of 

the picture

    and I think it is fine as long as that model is a pure service

model.

    However I find it difficult to understand that the SOA RM TC 

model is a SOA

    reference model when it does not include other concepts of SOA.

    Unfortunately it seems that we cannot get to the point where we 

could agree

    on a minimal set of supported SOA concepts by a model to be the

<st1:place

    w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName w:st="on">SOA</st1:PlaceName>

<st1:PlaceType

    w:st="on">RM.</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>&nbsp; We do not have to

and I do

    not want to argue with you or anybody else in SOA RM TC. I am 

just trying to

    see how our works can fit together in a most efficient way. We

obviously

    need more time to better understand each others thoughts and ideas

and I

    strongly believe that a constructive respectable discussion is

helpful for

    everybody. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">By the 

way, do you

    know what I am supposed to do to get my messages to the SOA RM

list. In

    spite of that I am the SOA RM TC observer I get a faliure notice 

whenever I

    send a note to the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceName

    w:st="on">SOA</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType

    w:st="on">RM.</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>&nbsp;

</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Goran

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-----

Original

    Message ----- </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From: 

Duane Nickull

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To: 

Matt MacKenzie

    ; goran.zugic@semantion.com ; MATHEWS, Tim ; Sally St. Amand ;

    frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:

    soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:

Monday,

    December 05, 2005 5:02 PM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:

RE:

    [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Goran:

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The

service layer

    enables the process layer over top of it, however during runtime,

services

    do not know if they are part of a process or being called

individually (it

    would generally be a bad idea to try to maintain the overall state

of a

    process within each service, although it could be done).&nbsp; For

maximum

    repurposing of services, it would be better to have the service 

as a simple

    slave to the processes that may use it.&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY:

Arial">Accordingly, we

    made a decision that BPM, Orchestration, choreography is not a 

core part of

    the RM for SOA.&nbsp; We generally seem to agree that many SOA

    implementations will include a layer of BPM over top.&nbsp; We are

only

    addressing the SOA model, not the model for the underlying or

overarching

    layers. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I have a

PPT that

    explains this in more detail if you are interested.

</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Duane

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 

Arial">*******************************</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Adobe

Systems,

    Inc. - </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy><SPAN

    style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 

Arial">http://www.adobe.com</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    face=Arial color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY:

Arial">

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=black size=3><SPAN lang=FR-CA

    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; 

mso-ansi-language: FR-CA">Vice

    Chair - UN/CEFACT&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy

    size=2><SPAN lang=FR-CA

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; 

mso-ansi-language: FR-CA">http://www.uncefact.org/

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN lang=FR-CA

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext; 

mso-ansi-language: FR-CA"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Chair -

OASIS SOA

    Reference Model Technical Committee </SPAN></FONT><FONT

color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Personal

Blog -

    http://technoracle.blogspot.com/ </SPAN></FONT><FONT

color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 

Arial">*******************************

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:

Matt

    MacKenzie [ mailto:mattm@adobe.com] </SPAN></FONT><FONT

color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:

Monday,

    December 05, 2005 12:51 PM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:

    goran.zugic@semantion.com; MATHEWS, Tim; Sally St. Amand;

    frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:

    soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:

RE:

    [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Process 

orientation

    is only one of multiple potential integration with service

oriented

    architecture.&nbsp; SOA-RM is laying the foundation for durable 

architecture

    based on the core concept of service orientation.&nbsp; We

recognize that

    process oriented architecture is a natural fit with service

    orientation...but so are things like event orientation. 

</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-matt

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:

    goran.zugic@semantion.com [ mailto:goran.zugic@semantion.com]

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:

Monday,

    December 05, 2005 3:36 PM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:

MATHEWS, Tim;

    Matt MacKenzie; Sally St. Amand; frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:

    soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:

Re:

    [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think 

that SOA RM

    has done good job documenting well-known service related concepts

and

    defining some new ones. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I do 

not see other

    details besides service and service-related concept definitions in

the

    current SOA RM committee draft right now. I look forward to seeing

the

    completion of the model you are working on with the bottom-up

approach.

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 

Arial">Business, business

    processes and collaboration aspects of business are important to 

address in

    the model what is not the case with the current content of the SOA

RM

    committee draft. By a business process I mean a generic business

process

    entity which has common components (activities, decisions, etc)

and

    relationships between them that can be used to model a business

process in

    any environment regardless of what business we support and

technology we

    use. I agree with Sally that a link between business processes 

and services

    should be one of key requirements any SOA reference model should

try to

    meet. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I am 

not sure what

    SOA with services brings to business when the link between the

business

    processes and services and overall business process semantics in

the SOA

    context are not considered to be important aspects in a 

SOA-based reference

    model. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Goran

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY:

Arial">-----Original

    Message----- </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From: 

MATHEWS, Tim

    [ mailto:tmathews@lmi.org] </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:

Monday,

    December 5, 2005 12:34 PM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To: 'Matt

    MacKenzie', 'Sally St. Amand', frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:

    soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:

RE:

    [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better

    "Componentization" </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Matt - I

am not

    sure what point you are trying to make by this?&nbsp; I agree with

your

    premise of a bottom up effort, as this was one of the operating 

assumptions

    that was made from the beginning. </SPAN></FONT><FONT

color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">But, I 

am confident

    it is the business environment that is independent from the 

reference model.

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">TM

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:

Matt

    MacKenzie [ mailto:mattm@adobe.com] </SPAN></FONT><FONT

color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:

Monday,

    December 05, 2005 11:58 AM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To: Sally

St.

    Amand; frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com </SPAN></FONT><FONT

color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:

    soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:

RE:

    [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better

    "Componentization" </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sally,

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A

reference model

    actually needs to be a bottom up effort.&nbsp; We leave the ever 

so popular

    ?top-down? approach to folks like ebSOA J </SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">We?re

creating a

    vocabulary and general understanding of what I hope we can call 

a discipline

    of computer science in the future.&nbsp; This means, we need a

durable

    reference model that is not dependent on the current business

environment.

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">-matt

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:

Sally St.

    Amand [ mailto:sallystamand@yahoo.com] </SPAN></FONT><FONT 

color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:

Monday,

    December 05, 2005 10:19 AM </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:

    frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cc:

    soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:

Re:

    [soa-rm] Proposal: Reorganization of SOA-RM Draft for Better

    "Componentization" </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Frank

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This is 

in response

    to your request on last week?s conference call, if anyone has 

comments speak

    now. I also think that the recent comments on clarifying sections

are a

    reflection of my issues with the specification.

</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I agree

with the

    majority of points made/described in ver 10. My issues are with 

what is not

    in this draft. Based on Fig 1 the Refe! rence Model is guided by

Reference

    Architectures, Concrete Architectures, Profile &amp; Related 

Models. They in

    turn account for requirements, motivation &amp; goals. This is

creating a

    Reference Model from the bottom up. I believe a Reference Model

should

    reflect a top down approach. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 363.35pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium 

none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

none; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 

1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 3.0pt"><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The 

Reference Model

    needs to reflect the environment, the strategy and the priorities

of the

    business/mission/collaboration.&nbsp; This will impact the

construction of

    services. A service is a business task or activity that is 

realized through

    technology. The draft does a good job of describing how that

realization

    happens. But it doesn?t provide a sufficient link between

processes and

    services. The draft makes the point that the central focus of! SOA

is the

    task of business function?getting something done. A business 

process is made

    up of tasks and activities to achieve a goal (getting something

done). The

    concept of creating the service from the tasks and activities in a

process

    is important. For example, where on the continuum of fine 

grained to coarse

    grained should a particular service be; this will affect

interaction,

    reusability. The relationship between processes and services 

needs to be in

    the Reference Model. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 3.0pt"><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

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1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 3.0pt"><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">While I

saw that

    there is a note saying the glossary is still in flux, since one of

the

    objective of the Reference Model is a vocabulary, having less in

the

    glossary might be a better option. Is semantic integration a

guiding

    principle of SOA? </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

none; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 

1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 3.0pt"><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; 

PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 363.35pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium 

none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium 

none; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in; mso-border-left-alt: solid black 

1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 3.0pt"><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">With

respect to

    conformance there needs to be business results. That is an SOA

should

    provide demonstrable mission accomplishments, e.g. ROI, match a 

competitors

    distribution channel. SOA is not a technology. Conformance should

provide

    operational accomplishments, these should be measurable. 

</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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1.5pt; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 3.0pt"><FONT

    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sally

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">!

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>

    <P class=MsoNormal

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

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    face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;

    </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>

    <DIV

    style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; 

BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 3pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; 

BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: 

medium none">

    <P class=MsoNormal

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mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 3.0pt"><FONT

    face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN

    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT

    color=black><SPAN

    style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: 

windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLO

CKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

 

</x-html>

 

 

-- 

Rex Brooks

President, CEO

Starbourne Communications Design

GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison

Berkeley, CA 94702

Tel: 510-849-2309

 

---

Ken Laskey

MITRE Corporation, M/S H305     phone:  703-983-7934

7515 Colshire Drive                        fax:        703-983-1379

McLean VA 22102-7508