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Subject: Re: [ubl-comment] UBL comments on ebXML Core ComponentsTechnicalSpecification v1.8
Surely we have the solution to this in the 'enveloping' concept that we employ by having aggregates in the CC Tech Spec, and that we use to good effect in the UBL work done so far. Anyone encountering an aggregate in a data stream has three choices, (1) go into it and process its detail because they need to get at the information contained, (2) step over it and ignore it because the information is not relevant to the processes they have to carry out, or (3) pass the information untouched down the processing chain because they know someone else further down the transaction processing chain does need it. Only in situation (1) do they have to understand its content, which they will, because they need it for their own business processes. We have precisely this situation in UN/EDIFACT Finance messages, where the remittance information is a 'black box' that is simply passed through the banking transaction chain, because it is created by the Payor to tell the Payee what the payment is for. Banks do not look into the black box! Mike Adcock Standards & Security Unit APACS - Association for Payment Clearing Services Mercury House, Triton Court 14 Finsbury Square London EC2A 1LQ Tel: +44 (0) 20 7711 6318 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7711 6299 e-mail: michael.adcock@apacs.org.uk >>> Tim McGrath <tmcgrath@portcomm.com.au> 30/04/02 04:19:23 >>> I understand your concern and I am not one who believes in the word 'never' - 'to be avoided' is probably more appropriate. But, to take your case-in-point, what is the alternative to maintaining separate structures? - maintaining lists of 'goods attributes'? The point is that for two parties to understand semantics they either agree what to call the thing or they agree to use the same coded reference for the thing. I also agree the 'description' is not an viable option. What you have highlighted is that sometimes a party is not too concerned about semantics - just structures/syntax. They need data exchange but not interoperability. That is, a carrier is not primarily concerned with the colour of the fabric - just that is must be reported on their documents. These meta-data codes help that process, but rely upon an agreed (and maintained) sets of meta-data codes. So in effect, they trade-off direct data structure maintainance for indirect data code maintainance. As you say, sometimes thats an option. But my guess is that if a carrier (and i know a few of them) could charge different rates for different colour fabrics - then they would want interopeability and build the structures necessary. Do you think we could say 'not conducive to interoperability' rather than 'never'? Philip Goatly wrote: >Tim , > > I believe it is far too doctirnaire to say that codes should not/never >be used for meta-data. > > I do however concur that if one is a particular industry - communicating >with another member of that industry- then using codes for meta-data may be >unnecessary. > > However if a particular party, like a carrier has to deal with many >industries - up to say 20 - then using meta- data to represent 'Product >Attributes' is one way to reduce the plethora of data formats, that the >carrier will have to deal with, unless meta data is used. > > e.g. > > If a carrier deals with: Retail for example he will need : >size,color,SKU,Season,washing instructions etc > If he also deals with metals (Aluminium) he will need : >Weight,Volume,Various Analyses and SKU Color etc will be irrelevant. > At the same time he may have to deal with TractorParts, >Automobiles,Coal, Iron,Food, Aircraft parts,Oil etc > > Believe me for a carrier many of these pieces of data are >required in separate fields - you can't just have a non-parsable 'Goods >Description' string > >If he has to maintain different data strucutres for all these possibilities, >he will curse us or just won't do it.I suspect the latter. > >I hear what is being said but I think a total ban is asking for trouble > > >Cheers, Phil > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tim McGrath" <tmcgrath@portcomm.com.au> >To: <ubl-comment@lists.oasis-open.org> >Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 7:11 AM >Subject: [ubl-comment] UBL comments on ebXML Core Components Technical >Specification v1.8 > > >>In response to the UN/CEFACT's Electronic Business Transition ad-hoc >>Working Group's (eBTWG) call for comments on their ebXML Core Components >>Technical Specification (see http://www.ebtwg.org/news/040402.html), we >>are attempting to prepare a consolidated response from UBL members based >>on our recent experiences with implmenting some of the concepts and >>rules indentified. >> >>Please find attached the current working draft of this response. If you >>would like to contribute or comment on our comments, then please do so >>within the next 48 hours using this list. We plan to discuss these >>responses at this week's NDR and LC subcommittee meetings. The date for >>submission to the eBTWG is Saturday May 4th. >> >>-- >>regards >>tim mcgrath >>fremantle western australia 6160 >>phone: +618 93352228 fax: +618 93352142 >> >> > > >_____________________________________________________________________ >This message has been checked for all known viruses by the >MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription >manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> > >. > -- regards tim mcgrath fremantle western australia 6160 phone: +618 93352228 fax: +618 93352142 ********************************************************************** The opinions expressed are those of the individual and not the company. 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