RE: [ubl-dev] SBS and Restricted Data Types

["G. Ken Holman" <gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com>]

At 2006-05-04 15:01 -0400, Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>Respectfully: It's not that you're not getting your points across - you
>are. I just don't agree with them. There's a difference.:)

:{)} I agree there is a difference in agreement ... and I respect 
that ... but I was under the distinct impression you did not 
understand my different opinion when you were asking me why we didn't 
do something (add W3C Schema constraints) when all along we've been 
repeatedly saying we could not change the UBL normative schema expressions.

Had I successfully conveyed that UBL users have no leeway to change 
the UBL schemas, then I wouldn't have been asked why we couldn't just 
change the W3C Schema constraints to meet users' needs.

At 2006-05-04 15:01 -0400, Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>I don't
>believe that one should be forced to use Schematron in addition to W3C
>Schema if they don't have to.

And I don't believe I ever said one is obliged to use Schematron for 
the layering ... one could equally well use Python/SAX for the 
layering.  Anyone can use anything as long as they don't change the 
base W3C Schema expressions.

In fact you could use W3C Schema for the layer if you wished, Joe, 
provided that you don't change the base W3C Schema expressions, 
because once you do, you no longer can state that you are conforming 
to UBL because it would reject an instance that the normative schemas 
would not reject.  By writing a W3C Schema layer you would be 
applying your application constraints *after* the normative schema 
confirmed the instance conformed to UBL.

At 2006-05-04 12:07 -0400, Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>why should someone be forced to used Schematron in
>addition to W3C Schema when W3C Schema already has facilities for this
>requirement? (e.g. xsd:minLength, xsd:maxLength, xsd:Length)

So go ahead and use W3C Schema for your layer on top of UBL ... use 
anything you want in a layer ... that's the nice thing about layers 
that they don't change what they are layered on ... I'm of the 
opinion that one just doesn't change the base UBL schemas to 
incorporate layered constraints because then they are no longer UBL schemas.

But if you want to reduce the number of layers to one, you could make 
a better choice than W3C Schema for that layer since it is not 
expressive enough for co-occurrence constraints or contextual constraints.

For code list value validation I happen to have chosen ISO/IEC 
19757-3 Schematron because it is an international standard and works 
well for expressing layered value, co-occurrence and contextual 
constraints on top of structural constraints.  I wouldn't use it for 
a layer of structural constraints so that would involve yet another 
layer (for that I would personally use ISO/IEC 19757-2 RELAX-NG).

At 2006-05-04 15:01 -0400, Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>Having requirements for an initiative is not equivalent to "imposing two
>trading partners' limits on the whole user community of UBL.".
>Restricting users from being able to define restrictions for data types
>is, I believe, imposing a standard's limits on the whole user community
>that might implement it.

UBL restricts all users from doing *anything* to the base normative 
definition ... users can, however, apply any layers of their own 
requirements on top that they wish in order to make it their own 
without changing the definition of the UBL document models such that 
any user can continue to create a conforming UBL instance.

. . . . . . . . . . . . Ken

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