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Subject: [ubl-ndrsc] Minutes for 21 August 2002 UBL NDR SC meeting
Minutes for 21 August 2002 UBL NDR SC meeting
1. Roll call (quorum is 8)
* Bill Burcham YES
* Mavis Cournane YES
* Mark Crawford YES
* Fabrice Desré no
* Matt Gertner no
* Arofan Gregory YES (left y:28)
* Jessica Glace YES
* Michael Grimley YES
* Eduardo Gutentag YES
* Eve Maler YES
* Sue Probert no
* Lisa Seaburg YES
* Gunther Stuhec YES (partial)
* Paul Thorpe YES
* Kris Ketels no
Quorum reached.
2. Acceptance of minutes of previous meeting
14 August 2002 as amended by putting "regrets" on Bill's line:
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-ndrsc/200208/msg00017.html
Accepted.
3. Adoption of agenda/schedule planning
Adopted. We will end the call after 1.5 hours.
We will do an increasing amount of NDR document review and
development leading up to September 18. Mavis has some travel
around that time that will mean a bit of extra coordination.
August 21:
- Jessica and Mike might have to leave early
- NDR document review
- OO and containership papers and methodology implications
- Date/time: OO implications and comments received
- Finish embedded documentation decisions
- Local qualified vs. local unqualified vs. global elements
August 28:
- Regrets from Eve; Mavis will chair and send agenda
- Mark may join late (from Geneva)
- NDR document review (look at external comments)
- Discuss and decide schema location options
September 4:
- Jessica and Mike might have to leave early
- Regrets from Paul Thorpe
- NDR document review
September 11:
- Regrets from Paul Thorpe, possibly from folks in Geneva
- NDR document review
- Mike Rowell from OAG: intro to the OAG design rules
September 18:
- Jessica and Mike might have to leave early
- Regrets from Gunther Stuhec
- Approve documents for review distribution #3
September 25:
- No meeting; work on other UBL tasks instead
October 1-4:
- F2F #5 in Burlington, MA, USA
- Everyone should try to reserve the Burlington Marriott
- Agenda ideas:
. Overview of CCTS changes
. Containership (OO, normalization, methodology, etc.)
. Second-tier attributes (impacted by CCTS work)
. Date/time (impacted by CCTS work)
. Content referencing (impacted by CCTS work)
A NDR document improvements IN PROGRESS
A+ Embedded documentation NEARLY DONE
A Code lists IN PROGRESS
A Dates and times IN PROGRESS
A Nested supplementary components IN PROGRESS
A Identifier references and whether to pass content by reference
A- Local vs. global elements
B+ Containership IN PROGRESS
B Updating guiding principles IN PROGRESS
B Modnamver URN scheme DONE
B Modnamver schema location IN PROGRESS
B Referencing of content, e.g. for attachments
C Facets
C Wildcards/open content
C Nillability
C Aggregation of similar information for XPath V1.0 addressing
4. Action item review
Lisa:
- NEW: Send out the normalization paper.
- NEW: Ask Tim to fix the Identifier->ID spreadsheet formula bug.
- NEW: Check whether we have an inappropriate rule on treating
RTs as reserved.
Arofan:
- Update the embedded documentation paper according to August 7
decisions.
Mavis:
- Update the issues spreadsheet with Eve's comments.
- Amend NDR document to add example code for Period. IN PROGRESS
- Update NDR draft 15 with comments from our August 14 comments.
IN PROGRESS
- Update issues spreadsheet to contain externally received NDR
comments.
Eve:
- Finish draft of code list document. IN PROGRESS
- See if Mavis might be available for August 28 call. DONE
- NEW: Raise awareness of the containership issue to the CSC.
Gunther:
- Write content referencing paper. IN PROGRESS
- Send date/time NDR snippets to Mavis. IN PROGRESS
- With Arofan, prepare samples of how to handle second-tier
attributes. IN PROGRESS
- Bring the donkey to Burlington!
Bill:
- Update modnamver paper by September 11.
- Start an email thread proposing a schema location solution.
- NEW: Start a thread on RTs in aggregates and possible NDR
document bugs in this area.
Jessica:
- Review 0pt65 release draft. IN PROGRESS
5. Reports from other groups
Lisa and others are working frenetically on the LC SC distribution.
There are some issues still outstanding, but the F2F will provide
the best opportunity for hashing these out.
6. NDR document review
a. Top-level message/element naming issue
b. Continue reviewing NDR draft 15, Section 10
c. New principle wording
See this message:
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-ndrsc/200208/msg00025.html
d. New rule for naming of lists
Do we need to discuss this further based on Bill's input?
These were all deferred.
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-ndrsc/200208/msg00019.html
e. Identifier->ID problem
It appears that the remaining cases of an element being called
FooIdentifier happened because the Foo.Identifier.Identifier
truncation is happening after (or instead of) the truncation
of Identifier to ID. The naming formula needs to be fixed in
this respect.
In this discussion, we noticed that RTs are freely being used
as property terms (e.g., Foo.Amount.Amount) in the spreadsheet.
There's supposed to be a rule treating RTs as reserved keywords,
but we haven't done this to date and the formulas work fine
without it. So we don't recommend any change to the rules on
this.
f. RTs for aggregates
Bill noted that Details has been used as the RT for aggregates.
(Mark noted that, technically, Details is not an RT but just
serves in that spot.) Bill is proposing that the spreadsheet
offer a more "real" RT here by supplying the name of the
type of the property. For example, you'd have Order.Quote.Quote
instead of Order.Quote.Details, and then the two Quotes would
collapse according to our existing rules. Mark's reading of
the latest CCTS work is that this is not possible.
7. OO and containership papers and methodology implications
OO paper:
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-ndrsc/200208/msg00014.html
Containership paper:
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl/ndrsc/current/p-gregory-containers-02.doc
There is also the normalization material from Tim's methodology
paper, which has been extracted into a new paper that Lisa will
point us to.
Several of us are concerned that the OO metaphor (operating on XML as
objects) and the relational metaphor (doing normalization of XML
data) might be being inappropriately applied to the job of creating
usable XML message formats. The concern with the OO approach is that
directly serializing a programmatic view of data into XML might
reflect only one back-end application's preferences. The concern
with the relational approach is that tables aren't linear while XML
is, which leads to anomalous design results.
It was also noted that it's not really fair to paint the various
approaches as "OO", "relational", and "XML" since (for example)
OO programming uses containers all the time. There is some sympathy
for the view that it's useful to have a model standing behind the
schema; having that model be OO vs. E/R doesn't matter. Also, it
was noted that having flat XML that looks exactly like database
data makes it easier (naturally) to put it in the database.
In practical terms, the following goals and principles may be
impacted by decisions in this area:
- Speed of completion
- Leveraging XML technology
- Readable instances
- "Various and sundry"
- Customizability
- Abstracting away from back-end applications
We may be missing some requirements based on the following:
- Real-world experience with UBL used in back-end systems (such
as SAP's)
- Requirements based on relational manipulation of XML data
(such as normalization)
It will be essential to hash this out at the upcoming F2F, because
time is of the essence. It's a concern that material is going out
in the LC SC distribution that does not reflect the NDR SC's
concerns about containership.
8. Date/time: OO implications and comments received
Date/time paper:
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl/ndrsc/current/p-stuhec-datetime-05.doc
Comments from Mike Grimley:
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-ndrsc/200208/msg00009.html
Comments from Bob Miller (already discussed?):
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-ndrsc/200207/msg00008.html
Deferred.
9. Finish embedded documentation decisions
See here for previous decisions and status:
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-ndrsc/200208/msg00011.html
- Where to insert all the documentation elements in each XSD
construct?
- Make sure to at least provide a reference to the code list
document, which puts some requirements on documentation.
- Need to include rules on which fields need to be present for
which XSD constructs.
- The UBL schema modules need to incorporate XHTML Basic properly
(e.g., declaring its prefix? importing the schema?).
- We need to say explicitly what XHTML Basic version number.
Also see here for an idea related to XHTML CLASS keywords:
http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-ndrsc/200208/msg00026.html
Deferred.
10. Local qualified vs. local unqualified vs. global elements
11. Adjourn
Adjourned z:07.
--
Eve Maler +1 781 442 3190
Sun Microsystems cell +1 781 883 5917
XML Web Services / Industry Initiatives eve.maler @ sun.com
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