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Subject: Re: [spam] Re: [ubl-security] Questions regarding the XAdES Profile


Sorry if this is something that should be obvious to me, but I'm
not understanding the need for multiple signatures on UBL
CertificateOfOrigin.  I thought our document was just the
*application* for a COO.  Did I get that wrong?

Jon

Roberto Cisternino wrote:
> The CoO is most of the time issued by a Chambre of Commerce to evidence
> the origin of the goods.
> Depending of several factors it could be presented into diffeent ways
> (e.g. according a Letter of Credit) so it could be required to be signed
> by different actors (on paper there were seals) into different times.
> 
> The CoO document is a single one even if it should always be provided with
> the exporter’s invoice plus other relevant back-up information as
> required.
> It means that a reference could be sufficient but also attachments
> (incorporated) could be useful as well.
> It is difficult to predict how the electronic CoO will be required (as the
> legal requirements are not our domain)
> 
> Here there is a good summary about the CoO:
> http://www.export911.com/e911/export/document.htm
> 
> After saying that I think we should provide an open way of using the CoO
> as it is really subject to different laws and it is very important.
> 
> We should ask the International Chambre of Commerce to come on board or
> have a temporar or stable liaison.
> 
> Sorry I can't help more.
> 
> Roberto
> 
>> El 26/08/2010, a las 02:36, G. Ken Holman escribió:
>>
>>> At 2010-08-25 18:24 +0200, Oriol Bausà Peris wrote:
>>>>> No full agreement is reached as Oriol reported some concern on the
>>>> scaffolding structure:
>>>>> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-security/201008/msg00031.html
>>>> Why do you need SignatureGroup inside SignatureInformation? Is it not
>>>> enough with sig:SignatureInformation as a container for all signatures?
>>> Because there could be many groups of signatures, one group for each of
>>> the signature business objects in the Certificate Of Origin document.
>>> Without the SignatureGroup element, all of the signatures would be mixed
>>> ... I don't know if that would impact on workflow or not.  But, I feel
>>> the association is important to express ... though it is only the
>>> Certificate Of Origin for now, future document types might need multiple
>>> groups of signatures with each group associated to a different signature
>>> business object.
>> I am not pretty sure about the business process related with the CoO. I
>> really don't know if this document is intended for different actors  start
>> signing different parts of a structured message whenever it is compiled, I
>> tend to think that the CoO is a collection of documents, some of them can
>> be signed and others not, but I cannot see people signing parts of the
>> document.... What I mean is that we are getting to something too complex
>> to fulfill a business process that (at least for me) is unclear. If I am
>> wrong and the CoO requires different actors signing the same CoO (or
>> different parts thereof), then the solution could be fine.
>>
>>>>> 2) only for documents where more than a single cac:Signature for
>>>> different purposes can be present (at present just COO) the
>>>> scaffolding can include an ID to reference to the relevant UBL
>>>> document part that the signature refers to:
>>>>>  <sig:SignatureInformation>
>>>>>    <sig:SignatureGroup> (one, if needed)
>>>>>      <ds:signature>…</ds:signature> (one or more)
>>>>>    </sig:SignatureGroup>
>>>>>    <sig:IdentifiedSignatureGroup> (one or more, if needed)
>>>>>      <cbc:ID></cbc:ID>
>>>>>      <sig:SignatureGroup>
>>>>>        <ds:Signature> … </ds:Signature> (one or more)
>>>>>      </sig:SignatureGroup>
>>>>>    </sig:IdentifiedSignatureGroup>
>>>>>  </sig:SignatureInformation>
>>>>>
>>>> why we cannot simply use the identifier attribute from the ds:Signature
>>>> element as such signature identifier?
>>> Because the declared type of that attribute named "Id" is "ID" which is
>>> a *source* attribute ... it isn't an IDREF or a *reference* attribute.
>>> It is uniquely identifying each individual signature.  All instances of
>>> that attribute must be unique in the XML document.  The semantic that is
>>> needed is an association of a group of signatures to a particular
>>> signature business object.
>>>
>>> Thus, if there are two signatures for one business object with
>>> <cbc:ID>x</cbc:ID>, they cannot both have Id="x" because of the schema
>>> constraint that says all <ds:Signature Id="?"> attributes must be
>>> unique.  There would be a validation error.  The structure I proposed
>>> creates the <sig:IdentifiedSignatureGroup> associated with the
>>> <cac:Signature> business object through the <cbc:ID>x</cbc:ID> child,
>>> and then the one group of all <ds:Signature> signatures for that
>>> association.  No validation errors.
>>>
>>> Also if the signing software wants to add unique identifiers to those
>>> signatures, it can do so without interfering with UBL semantics because
>>> we will have avoided changing or co-opting anything from the W3C
>>> specification for our own purposes ... which on its own is, I think, a
>>> compelling reason.
>>>
>>> So, I'm of the opinion the current attributes and elements in
>>> <ds:Signature> cannot give us the association pointer we need to the
>>> <cac:Signature> business object.  Therefore, after considering your
>>> proposal I still think we need the structure I've proposed.
>>>
>>> *BUT* thinking about the response to your email, something came to mind.
>>>  I'll start a new thread with my question.
>>>
>> Again, i think all this comes from an unclear business process related to
>> the Certificate of Origin, but maybe it is only unclear to me.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Oriol
>>
>>
>>> . . . . . . . . . . . Ken
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> XSLT/XQuery training:   after http://XMLPrague.cz 2011-03-28/04-01
>>> Vote for your XML training:   http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/o/i/
>>> Crane Softwrights Ltd.          http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/o/
>>> G. Ken Holman                 mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com
>>> Male Cancer Awareness Nov'07  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/o/bc
>>> Legal business disclaimers:  http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal
>>>
>>
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> 
> 


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